dh@. wrote:
> On 15 Jan 2006 16:52:27 -0800, "Dave" > wrote:
>
> >
> >dh@. wrote:
> >> On 14 Jan 2006 05:50:01 -0800, wrote:
> >>
> >> wrote:
> >> >> i'm 25 and i've not eaten meat for nearly 10 years. I'm also not
> >> >> drinking milk at the moment and i've replaced it with soya milk in my
> >> >> diet. the reasons are ethical and economic, one of the only real powers
> >> >> we have is to with-hold our trade, and i refuse to support factory
> >> >> farms by buying milk. anyway, i'm preaching to the converted.
> >> >>
> >> >> the substance of my post is this: i'm tired. i'm tired of explaining to
> >> >> everyone who asks why i don't eat meat. tired of listening to everyone
> >> >> at work at every job i go to saying how "but we're designed to eat
> >> >> meat" or other such shit. i'm tired of always explaining how long i've
> >> >> been vegetarian for, whether i eat fish or not, why i don't agree with
> >> >> factory milk production, hormone treatment, antibiotics and artificial
> >> >> insemination.
> >> >>
> >> >> i'm sick of going round in circles with everyone whom i talk to on this
> >> >> topic. i'm sick of being "exposed" as a hypocrite as they inevitably
> >> >> ask me if i buy products from supermarkets who also trade in milk and
> >> >> meat.
> >> >>
> >> >> most of all i hate the way my inquisitors ask me with a smug grin like
> >> >> they're the first to have ever questioned me on my diet, beliefs or
> >> >> personal philosophy. No sir, i've had this EXACT conversation 6000
> >> >> times, forgive me if i don't put too much into it.
> >> >>
> >> >> anyone else?
> >> >
> >> >We do not eat meat for the same reason cited by you. We eat eggs from
> >> >cage free chickens
> >>
> >> Then you are doing something to contribute to decent lives for
> >> chickens, unlike if you didn't contribute to any.
> >
> >Animals don't need humans in order to lead decent lives.
>
> Billions of them do.

Then name one animal species whose members are unable to
lead decent lives without human intervention.
>
> >It is true
> >that our desire to eat eggs causes more chickens to exist but these
> >chickens still require resources that could instead be utilized by
> >other animals. Farm animals are no more alive than wild animals.
>
> Explain exactly which wild animals you think we should provide life for
> instead of livestock, and why we should do it.

I think we should provide decent lives for herrings, especially red
ones
so that you can continue to avoid the real issues :-)

> >> >and drink some organic milk
> >>
> >> What's that?
> >
> >http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...Search&met a=
>
> That was useless. If you think it would be worth any more effort, go
> to http://tinyurl.com/ and make a URL that you can post entirely.

Well if you asked a serious question than I might do that.
>
> >>
> >> >but mostly soy milk.
> >>
> >> · From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
> >> steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
> >> get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
> >> over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
> >> get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
> >> machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
> >> draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
> >> likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
> >> derived from grass raised animals.
> >
> >Where do these "figures" come from? It is probably true that 1
> >serving of rice or soy grown using the standard commerical methods
> >results in more animal deaths than 1 serving of beef or milk
> >produced in the ideal way but I think you are massively exagerating the
> >difference.
>
> Then explain how cattle eating grass can contribute to anywhere
> near as many deaths as farm machinery, flooding, draining, herbicides,
> pesticides, etc.

No. I'm not the one making assertions here. You tell me how this
machinery, flooding, draining, *cides, etc. bring about the lives and
deaths of hundreds of times more animals per serving than grass fed
beef.
>
> >> Grass raised animal products
> >> contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat,
> >
> >This claim seems plausible but beef also uses more land
> >per serving than soy or rice.
> >
> >> and
> >> better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·
> >>
> >> >As
> >> >you see, there are different degrees and paths to vegetarianism but the
> >> >common thread is our compassion for animals
> >>
> >> Your consumption of cage free eggs is NOT veg*nism,
> >
> >Yes it is.
>
> If so, then so is my consumption of chicken and turkey. I have pointed
> out in the past that I'm a vegan who eats chicken, beef, turkey, fish, and
> pork. If you're a veg*n who eats eggs, then I'm a vegan who eats meat.

Veg*n means vegetarian or vegan. Eggs are not vegan but they are
vegetarian.
I can't believe I'm having to explain this to you.

> >> but
> >> it DOES contribute to decent lives for chickens. What I consider
> >> to be an extremely legitimate complaint against "ethical" veg*ns,
> >> is that they NEVER appear to care about such things.
> >
> >Without farming there would be no farmed animals not because
> >there would be no animals but because there would be no
> >animal farming.
>
> See?

See what?

> I do even though you can't, but the fact that you changed
> the subject is proof that you don't care as I pointed out. None of
> you ever do, and probably none of you ever will.

I care whether the animals that will get to experience life in the
future are treated cruelly. I don't care whether they are farmed or
not. I don't understand why you make such a big deal out of it.

> >> >and our revulsion with the
> >> >cruel and unsanitary practices of meat industry. Do not have your
> >> >problems with our friends who are not vegetarians. Maybe you have the
> >> >wrong kind of friends. It is no business of your co-workers how you
> >> >live and you do not need to discuss anything with them, unless they ask
> >> >you in a respectful manner. Most people who are not vegetarians are not
> >> >meat industry shills.
> >>
> >> LOL!!! I seriously doubt the "meat industry" pays anyone to post to
> >> ngs. I've tried to get some chicken producers to stick up for themselves,
> >> but they don't have any interest in all that. It would sure be nice ifthere
> >> were some though. Now on the other side: I could believe there are some
> >> veg*ns who are stupid enough to give people like Goo and Dutch something
> >> for the crap they contribute, but I don't believe any meat producers are doing
> >> anything like that.
> >
> >Why would veg*ns want to pay those people to argue the case against
> >veg*nism?
>
> As yet the Goo's opposition(s) to veg*nism are such an elusive myth that
> no one has ever been able to provide any example(s) of them.

If you think that Leif and Dutch are not opposed to veg*nism then you
obviously don't read all of their posts.

> Not even Goo
> or Dutch. No example has ever been presented when it was asked for, but
> I'll ask again: If you can provide any example(s) of Goo's and/or Dutch's
> opposition(s) to veg*nism, please do so.