In article .com>,
" > wrote:
> Isaac Wingfield wrote:
> > In article .com>,
> > " > wrote:
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Here's one, recent too: Death is by teflon outgassing or PTFE. Do you
> > > > agree now? Formalin is formaldehyde that you mentioned as an absurd
> > > > possibility. Now it is not so absurd. Did I misunderstand the abstract?
> > >
> > > I misunderstood the formalin. They are referring to fixing the lungs of
> > > the dead chickens in formalin, not that formalin formed in the lungs?
> > > In any case, PTFE cause pulmonary edema and the death of the chickens.
> > > So that's proof enough that PTFE can kill birds and it's not a fairy
> > > tale.
> >
> > Yes. It's the free fluorine that does it. But so what? NO proper use of
> > teflon-coated pans will cause the release of any fluorine, and birds
> > were used in mines for what reason? Because they were vastly more
> > sensitive to poisonous gases than humans.
> >
> > Any teflon that flakes off the pan will pass through you totally
> > unaltered. Teflon is close to the most non-reactive stuff in existence.
> >
> > Isaac
>
> Okay, now let me try and understand what you are saying. Improper use
> of teflon coatings, and I will, even proper use of teflon coatings,
> will release PTFE as a gas.
No. Polytetrafluorethylene does not issue as a gas. It disintegrates at
a certain temperature into carbon and fluorine. Fluorine is extremeny
reactive and so won't last vert long free in the air. But it is toxic.
>By proper use, I mean even the heat lamps
> used properly will release PTFE since it is released in the 500 range
> of Farhrenheit. Around 536 degrees Fahrenheit which is not much.
You might find that it would be rather difficult to get the temperature
of teflon-coated aluminum up to the temperature where PTFE disintegrates.
> Teflon is used in a WIDE range of household products. Irons to heat
> lamps to heaters to many things which achieve 536 F as a normal and
> proper usage.
And at that temperature, there will be no (or nearly no) release of
fluorine.
> Teflon cannot be as inert as you state, at least not as a gas, if it
> can kill birds.
Again: "teflon" does not exist as a gas -- certainly not in a kitchen.
>That is a sign that it does react. It certainly reacts
> with the lungs of birds and kills them.
As I said: fluorine is toxic. Birsd are far more sensitive to that kind
ofthing than humans. I've been cooking with teflon-coated pans for
years, and I haven't killed anybody yet.
>We are not talking 2000 F but
> the low range of 536 F. A range many, many household objects achieve in
> the normal operation. Even pots and pans achieve this.
You've typed "536" and "365". Teflon-coated pans are not for every
possible kitchen use; "proper" use means that you understand how to use
them to keep the teflon from disintegrating.
>But many
> household products have teflon coatings that most people are not aware
> of. Many products that have heat or heat producing qualities. And they
> go way beyond 536 F in their normal operation. Even for a pan, 536 F is
> not all that extreme.
>
> Now would you be kind enough to explain the flourine that you mention.
> Is this what kills the birds? The fluorine becomes free?
Yup. It issues from the teflon as it disintegrates. IF you heat the
panSO HOT for SO LONG that a considerable amount of the stuff is
released quicklt THEN -- maybe -- some harm could come to a bird from
it. Realize, though, that if you heated a well-cured cast iron skillet
in the same way, noxious fumes could issue from it, too. If you heat a
pan with a bakelite handle that hot, formaldehyde will come out -- and
it's a known carcinogen.
> Am I correct that one of the most deadly poisons comes from a compound
> acid made from an inert gas, supposedly inert gas.
No, you are not correct. Fluorine is just about the LEAST inert of all
gases; it'l react with almost anything.
>This is a little bit
> of a cheap shot but do you remember that acid, deadly, one drop, and it
> goes into the body and whammo. Very dangerous for those in chemistry.
> Did that acid have fluorine as a part of it? Scary stuff. One drop and
> it goes deep into the body. You must remember that name. Even an
> immediate shower is too late for those chemists who were not careful
> and it's a lousy way to die. Not that death is wonderful but some ways
> are more painful than others, like getting burned at the stake. Or for
> this newsgroup, the steak.
>
> Help me out here. I have to go to work and can't look up the details.
What you need to do, is learn some chemistry.
Isaac