ant and dec wrote:

> Martin Willett wrote:
>
>> ant and dec wrote:
>>
>>> Martin Willett wrote:
>>>
>>>> ant and dec wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Martin Willett wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ant and dec wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Martin Willett wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ant and dec wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Martin Willett wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> First published on http://mwillett.org/mind/eat-me.htm
>>>>>>>>>> posted by the author
>>
>> <snips>
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have a problem with hypocrisy, I make a rule not to eat
>>>>>> anything smarter than a pig,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> How convenient for you, and inconvenient for the pig. Why have you
>>>>> drawn this seemingly arbitrary line at pigs?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd like you to answer this point.
>>>
>>
>> I think you know the answer to that as clearly as I do: pigs are (by
>> quite a distance) the smartest animal I regularly eat, the only thing
>> that comes close is pigeons and since I gave away my shotgun I haven't
>> felt the need to eat any of them.
>
>
> I did think that "I'll draw the line just above what I normally eat" was
> the answer. I just thought that you may have another more convincing
> argument, but never mind.
>
>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> unless I really have to. Fortunately that rule
>>>>>
>>>>>> doesn't restrict my diet very much. I have a lot of respect for
>>>>>> the intelligence of pigs.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But not much respect for the pig?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If we didn't eat the pigs they would never exist at all. As long as
>>>> most of their life is happy and content it must surely better to
>>>> live and die than not to.
>>>>
>>>> Of course I know there's a qualifier in that statement. I put it
>>>> there, so don't bother pointing it out.
>>>>
>>>> Death is unavoidable, humane slaughter is not the worst death a pig
>>>> could face, very few wild pigs die in hospices surrounded by their
>>>> loving families with large quantities of euphoria-inducing
>>>> pain-killers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This line of thinking is very often pulled apart as being complete
>>> BS. by both camps. I see some have already pointed this out.
>>>
>>
>> I see. Which part of the argument?
>
>
> The BS part.
>
> The porcine hospices? Have you got
>
>> any photographs?
>
>
> Ah I see another joke. Ha.....Ha...
>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Chimp chops? No thanks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> It strikes me you simply haven't got an answer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> to the points I made.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does a diatribe have a point?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why restrict yourself to one?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We can move on, as the points are coming out.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>> Like a wet t shirt competition in a stiff easterly breeze.
>
>
> I did laugh (really!)
>
>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I get accused of many things, writing stuff full of facts is
>>>>>>>> rarely one of them. What was incorrect?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Salmon, as *one* example is a carnivorous species that we eat as
>>>>>>> a common food.
>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmon
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How is this a contradiction?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The only carnivorous species that we eat on a regular basis are
>>>>>> fish, animals that some people who call themselves vegetarians
>>>>>> even try to redefine as some sort of vegetable. I've news for you
>>>>>> veggies, haddock are animals that eat other animals, being cold
>>>>>> bloodied, small-eyed and ugly doesn't change anything, fish are
>>>>>> not vegetables. If you eat fish you cannot be a vegetarian."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry I missed that caveat. The article focused on not eating
>>>>> carnivores, we eat carnivorous fish (and other things to a lesser
>>>>> extent)what stops these hypothetical aliens 'fishing' for
>>>>> carnivorous humans?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nothing at all. Except that with billions of us to choose from
>>>> thinking purely as a connoisseur of meat I wouldn't be eating a 42
>>>> year old overweight male omnivore when I could have a teenage vegan
>>>> instead. I'd be fit only for sausages or pies. My granddad was a
>>>> farmer. He knew what to eat, food was his life. He always went for
>>>> local grass-fed heifer beef. I think aliens would think the same way.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think you're blurring the realms of hypothesis and reality under
>>> the pretense of a "joke".
>>
>>
>> This evening I'll be blurring the realms of reality with absinthe. But
>> jokes are good too.
>
>
> Ah I see another joke. Ha.....Ha...
>
>>
>>>>>>>> Do veg*ns never use the hypocrisy of eating meat and not wanting
>>>>>>>> to be eaten as a claim to a higher moral stance?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What higher moral stance? Different morals perhaps. Why do you
>>>>>>> feel they claim a higher moral stance and why? Perhaps it's your
>>>>>>> perception of your own morality.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh come on. Veg*ns ooze their sense of moral superiority like
>>>>>> Christians and Buddhists, they use it as part of their locomotion,
>>>>>> like slugs.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this is a problem of your perception. Do you think I ooze
>>>>> moral superiority like a slug, and why? Can you could give some
>>>>> examples of personal experience as evidence?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They're too good at smugging it up to do much that you can put your
>>>> finger on. But you can tell, just like you don't have to see a man
>>>> engaged in sodomy to get a pretty good idea of whether or not he's ***,
>>>> but your observations would be easily taken apart by any competent
>>>> defence lawyer. It's obvious, but it wouldn't hold up in court.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You claim to observe this moral superiority, yet you can't give any
>>> examples? I think it's a figment of your imagination.
>>>
>>
>> And I think you're being deliberately dense because it suits your
>> cause. Of course vegetarians want and expect to be seen as morally
>> superior, but without asking for it specifically. Can you imagine
>> anybody ever answering the question "did you do that to be seen as
>> morally superior?" in the affirmative? If so please tell me what
>> colour the sky is on your home planet. Of course people do things in
>> order to be seen as better people but equally obviously they will
>> always vehemently deny it. We don't have to believe them.
>
>
> It was implicit that you made observations, yet you can't give any
> examples.

Most of the explicit examples of it I've seen are by
former "vegans" who have renounced at least that aspect
of their vegetarianism. Here's one such:
http://www.thevegetariansite.com/ed_nolonger.htm

Most of the rest is exhibited implicitly in the
comments of participants in these newsgroups, among others.


>> It is a part of human nature. That is why poppies and paper lifeboats
>> exist and why people make stickers that say "My mummy gave blood
>> today". But if you ever ask them whether they did something to appear
>> to be morally superior they instantly make up a lot of lame excuses.
>>
>> Vegetarians and vegans do not realistically expect the world to turn
>> vegetarian but they keep promoting vegetarianism because it allows
>> them *to be seen* as vegetarians. If nobody ate meat they wouldn't
>> have anybody to feel superior to so they'd have to give up something
>> else or actually do something worthy in and of itself.
>
>
> What utter crap. This is ALL in your mind, please provide SOME evidence
> for these conclusions. You don't get it do you, it's YOUR mis perception
> of vegetarians.
>
>>
>> If vegetarians were not regarded as morally superior and vegetarianism
>> was not seen as evidence of moral fibre then the Nazis wouldn't have
>> made so much of Hitler's spurious diet choices.
>
>
> More crap.
>
>>
>> My best advice to you would be carry on. Your propaganda isn't working,
>
>
> What propaganda of mine?
>
>> so don't change it. The world will never go vegan.
>
>
> Vegan / vegetarian. I've never asked anybody to choose any diet.
>
>> You're quite safe. You will always have access to the moral high
>> ground by simply not eating certain foods. Just think, other people
>> had to charge down machine gun nests armed with a swagger stick, get
>> beaten up by the Ku Klux Klan or expel the infidels from Jerusalem to
>> get what you get, all you have to do is pretend to enjoy mung beans
>> and tofu.
>
>
> Are you drunk, or was that a another joke. Ha.....Ha...? BTW I don't eat
> or even pretend to eat mung beans or tofu.
>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course they make a point of not *claiming* moral superiority
>>>>>> while doing all they can to ensure that other people get the
>>>>>> message loud and clear.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They don't claim it, because most don't feel (in my experience) or
>>>>> have a higher moral position.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How many times have you sat with somebody eating a salad who points out
>>>> that they also eat meat?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Occasionally.
>>
>>
>>
>> Really? "I'm eating a salad but I'd like to point out to you that I'm
>> not a limp-wristed carrot-muncher I also eat meat"
>
>
> I think you've got a problem with vegetarians! The common pattern of
> events includes *others* pointing out my dietary choices, then the rest
> of the table stating what they couldn't do without or can't understand
> my choices, etc.
>
>
>>
>> What kind of leaves were in your salad? Where do you pick your mushrooms?
>
>
> Ah I see another joke. Ha.....Ha...
>
>
>>
>>> This reminds me of when I sat next to someone in a restaurant, who
>>> said they were vegetarian, then went on to order the duck! - Perhaps
>>> this is a meat eater trying to claim this mythical "moral high
>>> ground", that doesn't really exist.
>>>
>>
>> There is a technical term for people who do that: ignorant ****s.
>
>
> Agreed.
>
>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Their entire bearing says "we're not claiming to be superior to
>>>>>> you, oh no, that would be rude and arrogant and not *nice*, but
>>>>>> you do know that you are inferior to us, don't you? You don't?
>>>>>> Here, take a pamphlet, it's all in there."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Again this is your misguided (self?) perception.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Carnivores don't wear badges and t shirts proclaiming their status for
>>>> the same reason that people don't wear "I didn't give money to charity"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Of course they do! What about "hunting pink" as just one example.
>>
>>
>> Tell me, when was the last time you saw
>>
>> a) a huntsman eat a fox
>
>
> Who said anything about a fox? Hunting pink is used in other hunts.
>
> Anyway it's a clear a badge of "I eat meat" than any words on a tee shirt.
>
>>
>> and
>>
>> b) somebody wear hunting pink outside of a hunt organized event where
>> they knew they were not likely to be surrounded or outnumbered by oiks
>>
>
> I've never seen that, but I don't see that's got any bearing, as I've
> never seen a "Meat is murder" tee shirt either.
>
> The fact remains that some carnivores do wear badges proclaiming their
> status, just as some vegans do.
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> badges. It is totally disingenuous to make out that vegetarians and
>>>> vegans do not want people to think they are morally superior because of
>>>> their diet, in exactly the same way that Christians do. People who
>>>> expect recognition for their moral probity make a point of not asking
>>>> for it but that doesn't mean they do not expect to get it and are hurt
>>>> when they don't get it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Unless you can give some evidence that this applies to the general
>>> ve*gan population, I must consider this as a figment of your
>>> imagination.
>>
>>
>> No, you mustn't. You may choose to, you may want to, but there is no
>> compulsion on you.
>
>
> There is no other option.
>
>>
>> I have already explained why I can't prove it. But neither can anybody
>> prove that there is or isn't a god. Just because something can't be
>> proved it doesn't follow that it isn't so. I can't *prove* Elvis isn't
>> running a whelk stall on Venus either.
>
>
> No, it was implicit in your response that the observation could be made.
> Surely if you observe these vegetarians being smug, you can give any
> examples; can't you?
>
>>
>>>
>>> There are irritating vegan zealots just as there are irritating
>>> Christians, but they are few and far between, as you would get on the
>>> "ends" of a normal population distribution.
>>>
>>
>> I suppose this is the only form of normality vegans ever achieve:
>> statistical.
>
>
> Meaningless. Or was that another joke; Ha.....Ha...?
>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Was I wrong in my analysis that more people eat "noble" salmon
>>>>>>>> and deer than "nasty" hyaenas and tapeworms?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> More people eat salmon than tapeworms, none are more "noble" or
>>>>>>> "nasty" than each other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> People do not eat nasty animals. At least they don't like to think
>>>>>> that they do. Muslims for example are taught to vilify pigs as
>>>>>> well as not to eat them. I am not suggesting that species are
>>>>>> objectively noble or nasty, that isn't the point, but the
>>>>>> perceptions vary. We don't eat rats and cockroaches but we do eat
>>>>>> prawns, which in turn eat marine carrion and excrement, but we put
>>>>>> that image from our minds, even to the point of calling the
>>>>>> alimentary canal of a prawn "just a vein", when in fact it clearly
>>>>>> is scum sucker shit.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure an alien wouldn't mind cleaning your "vein".
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But he'd probably prefer yours.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't think they'll be that picky, more likely to go after the one
>>> that ate all the pies! The prize porker! ;-)
>>
>>
>> You're obviously well out of the loop as far as meat eating goes. The
>> only thing that might interest an interstellar gormet about me would
>> perhaps be my liver.
>
>
> Pate de foie gras? Perhaps a bit too gras?
>
>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> PS. I may be away for a day or two. - Apparently there's a
>>>>> Christian (traditionally meat centric) festival going on that I'm
>>>>> expected to take part in!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Me and my two atheist children will be celebrating it tomorrow too. My
>>>> Christian wife is out babysitting while some Jewish friends go out
>>>> for a
>>>> Christmas drink. It's a funny old world, isn't it?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yep.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Meat is often the centrepiece of feasts because it is sharing food.
>>>> Herbivores don't share food and don't have much in the way of society,
>>>> they just use each other as bovine shields or the equivilent.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think you've lost the plot here. Perhaps you've seen too many
>>> "turkey on the table" movies.
>>
>>
>> No herbivorous species shares food. If you want to ingratiate yourself
>> with a gorilla you eat alongside them, or pretend to. You don't offer
>> them food. Pretty much the only food herbivores ever give away is
>> milk. But things are very different with meat, especially meat that is
>> gained via cooperative hunting. The complexity of social organization
>> in a wolf pack is orders of magnitude greater than in a flock of
>> sheep. Chimpanzees have their most interesting social behaviours when
>> they are cooperating on a hunt or sharing out the meat.
>
>
> Life at Sainsburys will never be the same!
>
> Now pull yourself back to the REAL World for just one moment. I said
> you'd lost the plot because you juxtaposed a meat centerpiece with a
> herbivorous diet. I share meals just as any most other families do.
> Traditionally meat is a the center of the a feast for no other reason
> than custom and practice. All this stuff about herbivores is just plain
> crap.
>
>
>>
>> Collecting vegetable based material is mind numbing drudgery, gaining
>> meat usually requires sharp thinking and often social cooperation. It
>> doesn't take much in the way of IQ to outsmart a dandelion but you
>> have to have your wits about you to bring home the bacon. Because
>> collecting vegetable based food is a drudge sharing doesn't arise. The
>> simplest way of ensuring a fair distribution of vegetable based food
>> is quite simply to eat what you gather and never give any to anybody
>> else ever, while not deliberately getting in their way or shitting
>> where they're grazing. That is the recipe for vegetarian cooperation,
>> with the only additions being follow the herd and try and stay in the
>> middle away from predators and don't mate with your mother if there's
>> another option available. No vegetarian species is ever going to
>> produce an intellectual titan or ever get past the first step on the
>> road to language because they don't ever have anything worth saying
>> beyond "get out of my way that female's mine". The most intelligent
>> herbivorous species is the elephant, I am fairly certain that its
>> intelligence is partly an offshoot of expanding the brain to cope with
>> the challenge of operating a prehensile trunk. (They also have a
>> prehensile penis but a penis never requires much intelligence to
>> operate, especially a big one) The rhino is clear evidence that you
>> can get by quite easily by being being a big vegetarian as long as
>> you're thick skinned and aggressive, intellectual ability is a luxury
>> that evolution has decided most herbivores can't afford.
>>
>> Vegetarian hominids are a bit of an evolutionary dead end. Huge jaws,
>> small brains. Given the option of adding a few more grams of body
>> weight to the bauplan of the herbivorous hominid evolutionary forces
>> are likely to go for extra thickness on the skull, bigger threatening
>> canine teeth or bigger testes, not more grey matter.
>
>
> More crap following on from the earlier (lost) point.
>
>>
>>>
>>>> If mankind
>>>> was herbivorous we'd never have become intelligent and socially
>>>> cooperative, we'd just be living like gorillas. Like it or not meat was
>>>> a vital part of what has made us human. But of course a was doesn't
>>>> make an ought.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree meat was an important part of out human evolution. You and I
>>> are fortunate to have a choice of what we eat. Perhaps more should
>>> think about their choices, in particular what impact those choices
>>> have, rather than blindly follow customs and practice.
>>>
>>
>> While you refuse to eat meat a Welsh sheep farmer sucks on his shotgun
>> because he can't pay the bills while another farmer far away takes the
>> money he made from selling you the beans you pretend to enjoy he goes
>> off and buys a chicken. But don't worry, people will think better of
>> you for making your stand and being so moral. It does help you score
>> with the appropriate (to your choice) sex doesn't it?
>
>
> Now I'm responsible for a Welsh sheep farmers suicide? Or was that
> another joke; Ha.....Ha...? The impact on any Welsh sheep farmer of my
> choices has been insignificant, if that was the point you were alluding to.
>
> The farmer's just as likely to go out of business because possibly you
> but certainly most others don't give a shit where their meat comes from.
>
> Why don't you answer the points I DID make rather than ones you like to
> pontificate about?
>
>
>>