Dutch wrote:

> "Glorfindel" > wrote

>>You are the one determined not to see any option other than the one
>>you prefer.

> Not true at all, and you must know it. There is no doubt about it, plant
> foods in most cases have a lesser impact than meat. I have no reason to
> dispute that fact.

Then you have no reason to dispute that a plant-only diet *can* be the
least-harm diet available.

>>>The point is that most people *could* reduce their current impact with
>>>non-vegan choices.

>>Absolutely -- but most people could *also* reduce their current
>>impact with vegan or vegetarian or gathered/scavenged choices --
>>and that those choices would be less harmful than the
>>equivalent killed-animal choices.

> There is no such thing as "equivalent killed-animal choices", there are
> simply choices.

*shrug*

>>>Saying that we must not compare the worst of vegan foods to the best of
>>>non-vegan foods

>>Go right ahead. Just compare the best of vegan foods with the
>>worst of non-vegan foods as well.

> Of course, plant-based foods will usually win this comparison whenever
> animals are supplemented to any degree with cultivated feed.

Yes.

>>It is very possible to
>>create a vegan diet which beats (non-scavenged) animal-based
>>diets in health, price, and amount of harm caused.

>>But you ignore that option.

> I do not ignore it in theory, I ignore in reality because I do not choose to
> follow a vegan diet.

Then you have no reason to criticize those who state that a vegan diet
*can* be a least-harm diet. You can only criticize choices made by
vegans *within* available plant foods. Vegans can also criticize other
vegans for choices made within plant-based food, and do. A vegan can
create a diet which satisfies both his ethics and yours.

> I also dispute the notion that there is any valid moral
> distinction between meat and vegetables per se.

I do not, if the meat is not scavenged from already-dead animals.

So -- we have established that your only real ethical argument with
vegans is that they do not always choose the least harmful vegan
options. You can have no criticism of veganism _per se_ on ethical
grounds.

You are a sad case, Dutch, and I am sad to see you driven out into
limbo. You have lost your original ethical system without finding a
new one, and the rationale you now give for your choices is clearly
inadequate: I can't really argue for the superiority of my ethical
choice any longer, so I will simply say no ethical choice exists: I
will wish the issue away. You are truly one of the lost ones, and
I am sorry for you. God help you.