Beach Runner wrote:
>
>
> usual suspect wrote:
>
>> B-cup Bob is STILL babbling:
>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> Are you so narrow minded
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm *open*-minded. I read the abstract and various mentions of the
>>>>>> study you discussed in the first post of this thread. I made up my
>>>>>> mind on the basis of that study that "real" acupuncture works no
>>>>>> better than "sham" acupuncture, which was the conclusion of the
>>>>>> researchers:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Conclusion Acupuncture was *no* *more* *effective* than sham
>>>>>> acupuncture in reducing migraine headaches although both
>>>>>> interventions were more effective than a waiting list control.
>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/9u76y
>>>>>
The Sham was traditional acupuncture.
I agree that there are many many false claims about acupuncture. The
study did not compare touch therapies.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No argument.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then stop deluding yourself (and so utterly unpersuasively
>>>> suggesting to others) that this study showed benefits of acupuncture
>>>> when the placebo group received GREATER benefit. Acupuncture was
>>>> *no* *more* *effective* than sham acupuncture.
>>>
>>>
Replace Sham, read the article and they used traditional points, just
not one's specified for migraines.
>>>
>>> I disagree that using traditional points should be called "Sham"
>>> acupuncture.
>>
>>
>>
>> That's what it was.
>>
They were traditional acupuncture points, not random insertions.
>>> And it was effective.
>>
>>
>>
>> Placebo effect, dummy.
>>

>>> A simple google search shows many AMA and research organizations
>>> researching acupuncture.
>>
>>
>>
>> AMA doesn't carry out research, dumb ass.
OK AMA supported groups.
>>
>>> You're dismissal in this case is simply stupid.
>>
>>
>>
>> I've only repeated what the study said AND concluded. There was no
>> difference between the two groups -- just between them and the control
>> group that received no sham or "real" treatment.
>>
>>> http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/acupuncture
>>>
>>> is but one example.
>>
>>
>>
>> From it:
>> Acupuncture is used to treat a wide range of illnesses and
>> ailments; however, it is mainly used to control pain, including
>> cancer pain....
>>
Yes, pain and nauseous. Why leave that out.
>> The aim of most acupuncture clinical observation and clinical
>> trials in cancer patients has been to evaluate the effects of
>> acupuncture on symptom management.
>
>
> Those were the results.
>
>>
>> That gets to its benefits as a *touch therapy*, not to it working as a
>> cure. I've already conceded that touch therapies have value in
>> reducing stress and the effects of stress on both sick and healthy
>> people. But touch therapies like reflexology, massage, and acupuncture
>> do NOT have curative powers as the superstitious true-believers in
>> them claim. I gave you links to other therapies which have similar
>> results to those: music, laughter, and pets. You probably didn't click
>> on those links, but they're to studies that show the same KIND of
>> benefit as was reported in the study you lied about finding in Time
>> magazine or as is typically reported in other studies. That's
>> important in improving a patient's quality of life, but it doesn't
>> cure cancer, migraines, etc.
>>
> I never said it did. There are false claims.
>
>> Here are those links again. Tell me how acupuncture is qualitatively
>> diffrerent, especially with respect to the study you trotted out as
>> "proof" it "works" (when the researchers noted that the placebo group
>> received greater benefit than the "real" acupuncture group, dumb ass).
>

You would be responsible to quantify the differences through clinical
comparison, in replicated studies.
>
> They called it placebo, but it was genuine acupuncture, regardless of
> them calling it sham.
>
> Do a controlled replicated study replicating it these other therapies.
>
>
>>
>> LAUGHTER
>> http://tinyurl.com/e2mn
>> http://tinyurl.com/e2mv
>>
>> MUSIC
>> http://tinyurl.com/e2nb
>> http://tinyurl.com/e2nf
>>
>> ANIMALS/PETS
>> http://tinyurl.com/e2nn
>> http://tinyurl.com/e2ns

Bob