Karen Winter wrote:
> usual suspect wrote:
>
> Karen Winter admitted she was wrong:
>
> Yes, Usual -- I am willing to do that when I am convinced
> I *am* wrong on a particular point. That's being honest
> and listening to other posters.

You only partially listened. I'm correct on all the other points in the
thread, too.

> Why do you react as if it is a weakness?

I don't consider it a weakness. In fact, I think it's a good step
forward for you. The journey of a thousand miles starts with one step.

> Why do you dishonestly suggest it means
> I am wrong,

I *honestly* dealt with both the issue and your admission that you were
wrong. The only "dishonesty" was your attempt to say that "my brethren"
was addressed to the listeners rather than "the least of these" in
*your* dishonest attempt to suggest that passage includes charity to
poultry.

> or admit I am wrong, on any other point of the
> discussion? This isn't, or shouldn't be, a form of warfare

Why are your feathers so ruffled by pointing out that you were caught,
shown to be wrong, and that you conceded as much?

> in which posters refuse to concede an inch and hold their
> battleline down to the last casualty. It should be an
> exchange of information and opinions.

Shall I recount your attempts to run away from discussions -- as "rat,"
as "Cynomis," and even now as "Glorfindel" -- rather than exchange
information and opinions? Consider just last night that you wrote, "I
can look up links to at least two I am of right now, but I assume you
will dismiss any evidence I present on animal thought."

> Have you never
> admitted you were wrong on a point?

I've admitted that I was woefully wrong that diet was a distinct and
separable part of "veganism," when in fact veganism is predicated
entirely on AR and has nothing to do with food.

> Or are you only afraid

I'm not afraid of anyone, especially usenet vegans. (And "wannabes" if
you want to include Skanky.)

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>> NOTE: *Brethren*, not animals.
> >>>>>>>>>>
>
>>> I'll go with St. Francis in calling animals brothers and sisters
>
>> He was wrong about that, and his friars abused that same passage in
>> the same manner you do. Why don't you instead follow *Christ*?
>
> St. Francis followed Christ, and I see him also as a role model of
> Christian behavior.

*Fishing* is Christian behavior. Jesus helped COMMERCIAL fishermen:
When he had finished speaking, he said to Simon, "Put out into
deep water, and let down the nets for a catch."

Simon answered, "Master, we've worked hard all night and haven't
caught anything. But because you say so, I will let down the
nets."

When they had done so, they caught such a large number of fish
that their nets began to break. So they signaled their partners
in the other boat to come and help them, and they came and
filled both boats so full that they began to sink.

When Simon Peter saw this, he fell at Jesus' knees and said, "Go
away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!" For he and all his
companions were astonished at the catch of fish they had
taken...
Luke 5:4-9 (cp. John 21 for similar post-resurrection account)

Eating fish is also Christian behavior. Jesus fed *fish* to hungry
followers:
Jesus called his disciples to him and said, "I have compassion
for these people; they have already been with me three days and
have nothing to eat. I do not want to send them away hungry, or
they may collapse on the way."

His disciples answered, "Where could we get enough bread in this
remote place to feed such a crowd?"

"How many loaves do you have?" Jesus asked.

"Seven," they replied, "and a few small fish."

He told the crowd to sit down on the ground. Then he took the
seven loaves and the fish, and when he had given thanks, he
broke them and gave them to the disciples, and they in turn to
the people. They all ate and were satisfied. Afterward the
disciples picked up seven basketfuls of broken pieces that were
left over.
-- Mathew 15:32-37

Jesus ate *fish* himself:
When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And
while they still did not believe it because of joy and
amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?"
They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate
it in their presence.
-- Luke 24:40-43

Christ's disciples weren't ARAs, they were fishermen -- *commercial*
fishermen. Christ went out to fish with them. He told them where and
when to find fish. He fed fish to others. He ate fish himself. Why would
he do that if he were an ARA?

Livestock production is Christian behavior. Jesus engaged in commerce
with *livestock producers*:
On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was
customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked
him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you
to eat the Passover?"

So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, "Go into the
city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow
him. Say to the owner of the house he enters, 'The Teacher asks:
Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my
disciples?' He will show you a large upper room, furnished and
ready. Make preparations for us there."

The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as
Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.
-- Mark 14:12-16

Jesus and his disciples followed the custom of *killing* and *eating* a
lamb on Pesach.

Jesus was NOT vegetarian, nor did he do anything consistent with the
animal rights or "vegan" position. He did things in stark contradiction
to AR and vegan principles.

Jesus said it's not what goes into a man's mouth that makes him unclean,
but what comes out of it (Matthew 15). Matthew wrote that Jesus offended
the Pharisees when he said that; it still offends people like you who
think people are ethical, virtuous, etc., on the basis of following
rules like "don't eat animals" and "don't wear animal hides." Worse, you
follow those who make new commands and demand others not do things which
are *permitted* scripturally.

St Paul also addressed the issue by writing that Christians should not
judge one another over diet, particularly over the consumption of meat;
he also wrote (1 Timothy 4) that the commmand to abstain from certain
foods (which includes meat) is a doctrine of devils. Yet you judge
people according to what they eat and demand others abstain from certain
foods to be more ethical, holy, etc., when the scriptures make it clear
that those things don't make people ethical or holy.

St Francis was an ascetic. He may be a fine role model for other
ascetics, but I'm "in the world" even if I'm not of it. I'm told to fix
my eyes on "Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy
set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down
at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

> I wish I could be more like him. I gather
> you don't have any interest in the saints as examples for us.

Strawman, and funny considering my congregation is named after one.

> I do. I am, after all, a Catholic, not a Calvinist.

You're a small c-catholic just like I am.