usual suspect wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> Hard surfaced floors are easier to clean and disinfect and provide a
>>> more hygienic surface than dirt, straw, etc.

>> They also create leg and foot problems, up to and including
>> crippling, if animals are kept on them continually.


> Turkeys -- sticking to the issue at hand

You didn't specify only turkeys.

>-- live 14-20 weeks,

No, they are killed by humans after 14-20 weeks.

> which,
> generally speaking, isn't long enough for them to become crippled.

Some of them manage to do so, however.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> No, they have plenty of room.

Ipse dixit. Not from the pictures.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>> and small-scale farmers

> Most farms aren't small-scale.

That is a major part of the problem. There simply are
too many animals for the number of people to care for
properly, let alone humanely.

> You can bitch and moan about the "good
> old days" all you want, but that won't change the fact that consumers
> benefit immensely when agriculture, like any other successful industry,
> benefits from economies of scale.

That doesn't help the animals, however. When they are regarded
as no more than economic units, they suffer badly. The cost
to the animals far outweighs the limited benefit to consumers of
slightly lower prices for a luxury product.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>> After the manure has been removed with the dirty bedding.
>> It only becomes a problem when very large amounts of manure
>> are produced.

> And even then, there's a variance depending on the local conditions of a
> certain farm. I concede some farms are too big given their surrounding
> environments. I also concede some states and counties should toughen
> environmental regulations so that very large farms face severe penalties
> for polluting. I also think they can be given incentives to increase
> their capacities for treating the effluents from their farms.

Thank you.

>> Take a look
>> at some of the pictures in James Herriot's books
>> on life in rural Yorkshire to see what traditional farms
>> looked like as recently as the 1940's.

> The 1940s aren't recent, nor were the conditions in Yorkshire similar to
> what you'd find in the US during or after WWII -- remember, rationing in
> the UK continued through 1954 (July 4th, no less).

The 1940's are quite recent -- within the memory of people still
living The conditions on those farms in general were similar
to conditions on traditional farms everywhere in the Western world
up until factory farming technology took over. What about them do
you claim was not common on traditional farms?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>> used animal waste as fertilizer for their
>>>> crops.

>>> That's still done in areas where subsistence farming is the norm.

>> I.e., where traditional farms still exist.

> Subsistence farming isn't traditional, except in impoverished regions.

It's traditional through most of human history. The farmer usually
produced to feed himself, and often some amount to sell if he was
lucky or owned a lot of land. That could vary greatly. Giant
plantation systems *have* existed from the time of the Roman
latifundia, but they were never the norm.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>> It was an ecologically sound system. Modern factory
>>>> farms create massive environmental pollution.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> Ipse dixit. You're painting with a very broad brush. Most intensive
> farming operations don't create "massive environmental pollution" and,
> increasingly, operators are adopting abatement measures to significantly
> reduce the amount of effluents discharged into regional waterways.

How nice. From what I've read, I don't believe your claim.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> Even the small organic farmers from whom you make your token purchases
> are "agribusiness"

Not as the term is generally used. They are farmers.

>-- and perhaps more so considering the inflated
> premiums they charge. The point is, vegans don't distinguish between
> agricultural models.

That is the kind of general claim you can't support. What did I just
do beside distinguish between them?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I haven't used the same argument. I'm saying it's ironic that global
> veganism would require significantly more monocropping than currently
> exists

Again, you can't support that. (Nor is it likely any time soon).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>> Read the Farm Sanctuary website for information

>>> You mean DISinformation.

>> No,

> Yes. They promote distortions. They do not tell the truth. They have an
> agenda. They're not unbiased.

They have just produced a report on animal welfare in production
of animal products. What in it specifically do you claim is inaccurate,
and why?

Yes, they have an agenda, the same one as humane organizations
everywhe to promote humane conditions for animals, and to
rescue individual abused animals.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>> They cannot even breed by themselves,
>>>> because their breasts are too big.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>> My point exactly. You support my argument that the turkeys
>> have been deliberately crippled and deformed for human
>> convenience.

> No, I don't support that viewpoint. Your argument is a non sequitur.
> Turkeys don't breed naturally because they go to slaughter long before
> they're sexually mature. They're not bred to have willies in proportion
> to the rest of their anatomy.

Exactly. Both inhumane and unethical.

>> No animal should be bred so that he is *incapable*
>> of carrying out normal biological functions for his species,
>> such as reproduction.

> Why not?

If it isn't obvious to you, I am sorry for you.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> The amendment in question was a thoroughly meaningless measure. The
>>> amendment's consequences haven't yielded any of the desired results,

>> Presumably, it has prevented other (legal) factory-farm pig
>> production starting up.

> Your presumption is baseless. There's no evidence farmers wanted to move
> operations into Florida in the first place.

Well, now they can't if they did want to, which is a plus for the
potential victims. Let's hope the example of Florida shows other
states what they can do when their people care about abused animals.
It has happened in other countries. Europe is far ahead of the U.S
when it comes to humane treatment of animals in farming.