On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 08:37:30 -0400, "larrylook" > wrote:

>
><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:49:22 -0400, "larrylook" > wrote:
>>
>>>Some here feel vegans are hypocrites because they knowingly kill more by
>>>eating vegetables, and should eat grass fed cows (GFC), even though they
>>>find this terribly distasteful.
>>>
>>>But vegans don't knowingly kill more. They think they are killing less
>>>and
>>>have good intentions.
>>
>> I've noticed that often when the truth is pointed out, vegans will lie
>> about it.
>
>The truth regarding what?

Human influence on animals.

>That the myth of the grass fed cow

That's one.

>(GFC) is
>correct? Most people are eating factory farmed meat and could care less.
>So what the vegetarian is doing is an impovement and creates less CD's.
>
>>
>>>Dutch (and some of the more foul mouthed) might point
>>>out that once vegans learn about CD's they now know about the killing and
>>>should switch to eating GFC's with their meals if they want to minimize
>>>death. But the concerns that Derek brings up so eloquently and honestly
>>>about the GFC label and it's validity
>>
>> If Derek cared he would encourage people to find out if the animals had
>> been fed grain, and how much, etc. Instead he dishonestly pretends that
>> grass raised beef is not available, because he doesn't care and does NOT
>> want people to deliberately contribute to fewer cds by eating grass raised
>> animal products. I know it. You know it. And I know that you know it.
>
>If Derek cares,

If 2goo cared about animals he would lie less, and very possibly not at all.
But he does lie, and he lies about animals, and he does it all the time.

>he would point out to people here that if they eat
>vegetarian they are killing less, since you guys are telling them that
>vegetarianism doesn't accomplish anything and they should eat GFC's to
>reduce CD's. But this is impractical since everyone is busy making a living
>and can't be researching everything on their plate. They need some basic
>guidelines to follow. They need "Ethical eating for Dummies".
>
>>
>>>would certainly matter greatly to the
>>>vegetarian.
>>
>> Here are some "vegetarian" products which contain egg whites,
>> contributing
>> to the cds involved with raising chickens as well as those involved with
>> the
>> grain in the products, and also contributing to battery farming:
>>
>> Worthington Meatless Chicken, Turkey, Ham, Vegetarian Hot Dogs
>> and Prosage Patties
>>
>> Lightlife Chicken Nuggets and Chicken Patties
>>
>> Boca Meatless Chick'n and Breakfast Patties
>>
>> Quorn Meat-Free Patties, Nuggets and Cutlets
>>
>> Morningstar Farms Garden Veggie Patties, Chick Patties,
>> Chik'n Nuggets, Corn Dogs
>
>Explain to me how egg whites makes any difference? I really don't
>understand?

It's hard to believe you could be as inconsiderate as you claim
to be.

>Explain it to me like I'm a 4 year old please.

They are contributing to the cds involved with raising chickens AS
WELL AS the cds involved with the grain used in making the products.
They are also contributing to battery farming laying hens, which some
of us feel is a poor method of keeping chickens.

>>>So I can't see how we are accused of knowingly causing more
>>>death if the point of the anti's (antivegetarians) is so muddled and
>>>unproven with regards to the supposed no deaths associated with GFC.
>>
>> It's for people who actually care about human influence
>> on animals that the info is really posted. We see that Etter
>> cares more about livestock than any vegans posting to
>> these ngs, and spends most of his posts pointing out how
>> vegans are lying about things related to human influence
>> on animals, afaik.
>
>It's not very clear to me that Rick would give a darn about what's on his
>dinner plate (in terms of ethics).

It's very clear that human influence on animals is much more significant
to him than it is to you, and almost certainly than it ever could be to you.
If it ever could be significant to you, how do you think that could possibly
come about?

>It's not an expressed goal of his. It's
>not clear to me that if he found out veal cows weren't treated well in his
>area he's stop eating them, or if chicken weren't raised ethically he's stop
>eating them. He keeps talking about the myth of the GFC, but it's not
>clear that if he moved somewhere where you couldn't get CFG he wouldn't
>switch to factory farmed meat.
>
>>
>>>How
>>>can we be accused of knowingly causing more deaths if we don't know it?
>>
>> You don't care.
>
>How do you know I don't care?

You can't, and you prove it. One example of the proof is your opposition to
humans reducing cds by consuming grass raised--NOT GRAIN FED--animal
products.

>You presume too much. You must have a degree
>in psychology knowing that all the vegetarians out there don't care about
>animals. This is so preposterous.
>
> That's the point. So of course you surely
>> won't care enough to make any changes that promote life
>> and death for livestock, even if it would reduce the number
>> of overall deaths which you contribute to. Right? Right!!
>>
>>>You guys need to come up with a better argument.
>>
>> You don't care. You won't care. It's for people who might
>> care that the info is presented, and it's for people who might
>> care that you oppose the info. You don't care, and you don't
>> want anyone else to care.
>
>Maybe if you say it enough you'll believe it.

Maybe you could say or do something to change my mind,
but I doubt you ever will. I invite you to try.

>>>I think what worries you anti's is that the vegans think they are doing
>>>some
>>>good and that bothers you.
>>
>> It's that you don't care, and can't be made to care, though
>> you dishonestly pretend that you do care. That has bothered
>> me for most of my life.
>
>I'll give you something else you can let bother you. That the majority of
>people don't care a bit about pain and suffering when they eat a meat.

I know that. But those people don't lie and pretend to care about
animals like you do. They admittedly don't care. You prove that you
don't care either, but dishonestly say you do. You are worse imo,
because of your incredible dishonesty.

>They could care less. Look at the audience at a bullfight. They're having
>a grand time. Why don't you worry about that?

Those people don't lie and pretend to care about animals like you do.
Your dishonesty is contemptible.

>You have missplaced worries.
>
>>>But it's not clear that *you* want to do good
>>>and you ought to think about that! Don't worry so much about us feeling
>>>we're doing something good. Do you think that lessing death and suffering
>>>of animals is worthwhile?
>>
>> Probably more than you do. Also, I feel quite confident that I'm much
>> more in favor of providing decent lives for livestock than you are. And
>> so is everyone else who promotes grass raised animal products.
>
>How much do you expect this CFG thing to catch on with the public?

I have no expectations, but we can see that you do NOT want it to
happen. So we can very safely say that I would like to see it happen,
and you would like to prevent it.

>Is there
>a huge public outcry for GCF's. I don't know.
>
>>
>>>I don't really get that impression.
>>
>> That's because you can't care about the animals, so you can't
>> imagine anyone else caring either. You want to eliminate livestock,
>> not provide decent lives for them, even in situations where doing
>> so would significantly reduce the number of animals deaths per
>> serving of food. You can't be made to care.
>
>Have a little faith in me, Mr. Optimistic ;-)

How could I? I would like to see food animals deliberately
provided with decent lives. You would like to see food animals
prevented from existing. How could I possibly have faith that
you want something good for the animals we raise to eat, when
we both know very well that you don't want them to exist at all?