rick wrote:
> "Rupert" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> >
> > rick wrote:
> >> "Rupert" > wrote in message
> >> oups.com...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Dutch wrote:
> >> >> "Rupert" > wrote
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Dutch wrote:
> >> >> >> > wrote
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> [..]
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > I think you'll find "factory-farming" usually refers
> >> >> >> > to
> >> >> >> > the intensive
> >> >> >> > rearing of animals. Have you got a justification for
> >> >> >> > calling
> >> >> >> > mono-culture crop production "factory-farming"?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Don't like people turning your pet pjoratives back on
> >> >> >> you
> >> >> >> eh?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Well, "factory-farming" is a simple descriptive term.
> >> >>
> >> >> It carries much more baggage than that.
> >> >>
> >> >> > It doesn't matter
> >> >> > very much what it actually refers to, I was just
> >> >> > surprised
> >> >> > that he
> >> >> > thought this was a correct application of the word.
> >> >>
> >> >> I realize that, because you don't fancy yourself as
> >> >> supporting
> >> >> "factory
> >> >> farming".
> >> >>
> >> >> Vegans typically have idealized views of themselves.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Well, be that as it may, I have provided you with no further
> >> > evidence
> >> > for this view. I was surprised to hear monoculture-crop
> >> > production
> >> > referred to as "factory farming", because I have always
> >> > heard
> >> > this
> >> > phrase used to refer to the intensive farming of animals. If
> >> > he's right
> >> > about the correct application of the word (which I'm not
> >> > convinced of),
> >> > then so be it. I have no problem with the idea that I
> >> > support
> >> > "factory
> >> > farming", so construed. What I *desire* about myself - not
> >> > "fancy about
> >> > myself" - is that I contribute to as little animal suffering
> >> > as
> >> > possible.
> >> =================
> >> You're lying again....
> >
> > No, I'm not.
> =================
> Yes, you are, You've provided no such proof of your claims, and
> by posting here you have proven that causing unnecessary animal
> deaths are of no concern to you.
>
>
No, I haven't. If you're not prepared to accept my statement about what
I desire, fine. I really couldn't care less.
> >
> >> Afterall, here you are spweing your
> >> nonsense on usenet again, killer.
> >>
> >>
> >> If anyone thinks that's not the case, I'm interested to hear
> >> > what he has to say on the matter.
> >> ===============
> >> No you're not. You wave your hands and pretend that anything
> >> that doesn't fit your brainwashing doesn't exist.
> >>
> >
> > This isn't an argument.
> =====================
> LOL And yours is where?
>
My argument for what? I've made arguments for my contentions.
>
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> > Anyway, I intended (correctly or otherwise) to use the
> >> >> > word
> >> >> > to refer to
> >> >> > intensive rearing of animals. Furthermore this clearly
> >> >> > involves a lot
> >> >> > more suffering than what he was referring to.
> >> >>
> >> >> Does it? How do you know? How much animal death and
> >> >> suffering
> >> >> results from
> >> >> cultivation, planting, spraying, harvesting, storage
> >> >> protection, etc, etc..
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > (1) The number of animals involved is greater, and
> >> > (2) The suffering inflicted on each animal is greater.
> >> > Perhaps (1) is false when we take into account all the
> >> > animals
> >> > killed
> >> > by the plant production necessitated by animal food
> >> > production.
> >> ======================
> >> Just use those that die for people food, killer. Once you
> >> admit
> >> that massive death and suffering occurs for your cheap,
> >> convenient veggies, you've lost....
> >>
> >>
> >> But
> >> > it's not false if we're only talking about the amount of
> >> > plant
> >> > production that would be necessary to support universal
> >> > veganism. Davis
> >> > estimates the death toll at 1.8 billion. More animals than
> >> > that
> >> > are
> >> > killed in animal food production. And each animal suffers
> >> > considerably
> >> > more.
> >> =======================
> >> Where do you get this ly from, killer? Can you back up the
> >> statement that all meat animals suffer more than any animal
> >> killed for your veggies? Didn't think so.....
> >>
> >
> > Yes, I can. I did it in a different post.
> ==================
> No, you didn't. You can't prove a ly, killer.
>
That's not an argument.
>
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> >> > Anyway, it's all very well to abuse me for supporting
> >> >> >> > these practices,
> >> >> >> > but you don't offer any serious alternative to doing
> >> >> >> > so.
> >> >> >> > If you had a
> >> >> >> > serious proposal for my further reducing the
> >> >> >> > contribution
> >> >> >> > I make to
> >> >> >> > animal suffering then I would consider it.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Stop supporting commercial agriculture, it kills
> >> >> >> countless
> >> >> >> billions
> >> >> >> of animals. Anyway, it's you who proposed that killing
> >> >> >> animals is
> >> >> >> to be avoided, why should we now determine for you how
> >> >> >> you
> >> >> >> are going to live up to it? Do your own homework.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I'm sorry, can you quote me as saying that buying
> >> >> > products
> >> >> > whose
> >> >> > production involved the death of animals is absolutely
> >> >> > prohibited? I
> >> >> > don't think you can.
> >> >>
> >> >> I see, so it's fine to cause death and suffering of animals
> >> >> when it fits
> >> >> conveniently into your chosen lifestyle but not when it
> >> >> fits
> >> >> into mine.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > That's not a very reasonable interpretation of my argument.
> >> > I
> >> > believe
> >> > in a principle enunciated by David DeGrazia in "Taking
> >> > Animals
> >> > Seriously": Make every reasonable effort to avoid providing
> >> > financial
> >> > support to practices that cause or support unnecessary harm.
> >> =======================
> >> Really? Then why do you ignore that sentiment, killer?
> >>
> >
> > I try to live in accordance with the principle. As I say, I'm
> > interested to hear any suggestions you have about what's
> > involved in
> > living up to it, but you refuse to take my expressions of
> > interest at
> > face value and instead prefer just to spew abuse. Not very
> > constructive.
> ===============
> Because you have yet to show any real interest, killer. You keep
> repeating the same tired old lys over and over.
>
Actually, I have shown some interest. I'm getting very bored of waiting
for you to actually provide the suggestions.
>
> >
> >>
> >> I believe
> >> > that, on any reasonable interpretation of this principle,
> >> > this
> >> > will
> >> > require veganism or near-veganism. It's not altogether clear
> >> > to
> >> > me that
> >> > it requires me to stop supporting commercial agriculture.
> >> ===============
> >> That's only because it's too convenient for you to continue
> >> it,
> >> just as your entertainment comes befor actually caring about
> >> animals.
> >>
> >
> > No, it's because I have some doubts that boycotting commercial
> > agriculture falls within the extent of "making every reasonable
> > effort".
> =====================
> LOL Of course you do, it would require that you be
> inconvenienced, eh killer?
>
Yes, it would require that I be inconvenienced. That doesn't
necessarily mean that it doesn't fall within the extent of "making
every reasonable effort". But it doesn't mean that it does, either. As
I say, I have my doubts. Maybe you can offer some reason why I
shouldn't have these doubts.
> Some efforts go beyond making every reasonable effort. Maybe
> > these doubts are unfounded. Feel free to argue the point. I
> > would also
> > be interested in any thoughts you may have about how I can grow
> > all my
> > own food in my back garden.
> =================
> You can't. And more to the point, you won't. You're too
> convenience, consumer oriented...
>
Well, if I can't, obviously I won't, and obviously it will be because I
can't, rather than because I'm too "convenience, consumer oriented".
>
> >
> >> That depends
> >> > on what's involved in "making every reasonable effort". I am
> >> > open-minded on this matter. Maybe you can persuade me that
> >> > "making
> >> > every reasonable effort" does require that I stop supporting
> >> > commercial
> >> > agriculture. Or maybe you can persuade me that I should
> >> > accept
> >> > some
> >> > more stringent moral principle, which would require me to
> >> > stop
> >> > supporting commercial agriculture. Go for it. But it
> >> > requires
> >> > some
> >> > argument.
> >> ====================
> >> You're the one that made the argument, and you are the one
> >> that
> >> fails to abide by it.
> >
> > Yes, I did make the argument, and you haven't demonstrated that
> > I fail
> > to abide by it.
> =======================
> LOL You've been told there are meats that cause ar less death
> and suffering than your veggies. You refuse to look up anything
> about it.
>
Yes, I've been told, and I've asked for some evidence. I have looked up
something about it. If anyone wants to point me in the way of more
information, that's great.
>
> >
> >> Read above... You continue to support, no
> >> make that reward, those that provide you with cheap,
> >> convenient
> >> food and entertainment at the cost of animal death and
> >> suffering.
> >>
> >
> > But I make every reasonable effort to minimize the animal
> > suffering to
> > which I contribute.
> ====================
> No, fool, you don't. You just proved that yet again....
>
That's not an argument.
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> > What I do think is that we should make every
> >> >> > reasonable effort to minimize our contribution to the
> >> >> > suffering of
> >> >> > animals. And I have done my homework on that, I believe
> >> >> > that
> >> >> > the best
> >> >> > way to do it is to become vegan. If you've got some
> >> >> > suggestions for how
> >> >> > I can do better I'm happy to listen to them.
> >> >>
> >> >> A typical vegan could reduce the net amount of animal death
> >> >> and suffering
> >> >> associated with his or her diet by the introduction of some
> >> >> carefully
> >> >> selected meat, fish or game, a person who supplements their
> >> >> diet by hunting
> >> >> or fishing for example.
> >> >
> >> > Fishing? Fishing involves a fairly high death rate per
> >> > serving
> >> > of food.
> >> =====================
> >> LOL What a hoot! As opposed to say fake tofu meats? You
> >> really
> >> atre this brainwashed, aren't you?
> >>
> >
> > Not necessarily as opposed to that, I was thinking more as
> > opposed to
> > vegetables and pulses. Whatever. All I said was I'd like to see
> > more
> > evidence. A pretty reasonable demand, wouldn't you say? Have
> > you got
> > any?
> =====================
> You aren't trying to read, are you?
>
Evidence that fishing causes fewer deaths per serving of food than
vegetables and pulses. Yes, I have been looking for this, and I haven't
seen any yet. Feel free to link to where it's been provided.
>
> >
> >>
> >> > I would want to see some more evidence that fishing will do
> >> > any
> >> > good.
> >> > And one problem with hunting is that not all of the animals
> >> > are
> >> > killed,
> >> > some of them are just seriously maimed.
> >> =============================
> >> Far less than the number for your veggies, killer.
> >>
> >
> > Any evidence?
> > ===========
> see below, killer...
>
>
> >>
> >> So the amount of suffering and
> >> > death caused per serving of food is higher than it appears
> >> > at
> >> > first.
> >> =====================
> >> And still no where near your death toll, fool.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > Where do you suggest I go hunting, anyway? Or where do you
> >> > suggest I
> >> > buy my meat? And what is your evidence that this will
> >> > actually
> >> > *reduce*
> >> > the amount of animal death and suffering I contribute to?
> >> ====================
> >> Again, you have proven that you lied when you claimed to have
> >> done all the research needed. Not a surprise now, is it?
> >>
> >
> > I didn't say I had done all the research needed. I said I had
> > obtained
> > some information and acted on the basis of it. Instead of
> > iterating
> > this utterly trivial point ad nauseam, why don't you actually
> > respond
> > to my requests for evidence?
> ======================
> Why don't you actually support your claims with data? Afterall,
> you made the claims.
I did.
> See below for some data, killer.
>
>
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> Also a person who also grows much of their own food
> >> >> *and* consumes meat probably does much better than that
> >> >> typical urban vegan.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Consumes what sort of meat?
> >> >
> >> > Growing more of my own food seems like a better proposal.
> >> > I'll
> >> > consider
> >> > that one.
> >> ================
> >> No you won't. You're too convenience oriented...
> >>
> >
> > I'm looking into the possibility of growing my own vegetables.
> =================
> Looking, not doing, figures...
>
> >
> >> >
> >> >> Don't misunderstand, I am not suggesting you do these
> >> >> things,
> >> >> I am just
> >> >> asking you to acknowledge that they are viable choices.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Sure they are. But I'm not sure you've offered any practical
> >> > suggestions that will definitely reduce my contribution to
> >> > animal death
> >> > and suffering, except possibly growing some of my own food.
> >> ===============
> >> Then you are either blind, stupid, ignorant or too far
> >> brainwashed to understand, killer.
> >>
> >
> > Right. I see. Well, perhaps you can answer my requests for
> > evidence
> > that your other suggestions actually will reduce my
> > contribution to
> > animal suffering.
> ===========================
> You aren't even looking, are you? See, you prove that point
> every post.
>
Yes, I am. I haven't seen any evidence yet.
>
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> > I'm not altogether convinced that the suggestion "stop
> >> >> > supporting
> >> >> > commerical agriculture" is entirely feasible for me. If
> >> >> > you've got some
> >> >> > ideas as to how I can do it I'm happy to listen to those,
> >> >> > as
> >> >> > well.
> >> >>
> >> >> Of course "feasible" is something you define for yourself.
> >> >> I
> >> >> would like you
> >> >> to show me the respect to allow me to do the same for
> >> >> myself.
> >> >
> >> > There is a limit to the reasonable application of words.
> >> > There
> >> > is no
> >> > reasonable sense in which it is "unfeasible" to become
> >> > vegan.
> >> > It is
> >> > feasible for me to reduce the extent to which I support
> >> > commerical
> >> > agriculture, but to stop supporting it - well, I'd just be
> >> > interested
> >> > to hear how you propose I would go about doing that.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Here are some sites, with info on specific areas and
> >> pesticides. Animals die.
> >> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
> >> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
> >> http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
> >> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
> >> http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
> >> http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
> >> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
> >> http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
> >> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
> >> http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
> >> http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
> >> http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
> >> http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
> >> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
> >> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
> >> http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
> >> http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
> >> http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
> >> http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
> >> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
> >> http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
> >> http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
> >> http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
> >> http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
> >> http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
> >> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
> >> http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
> >> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
> >> http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
> >> http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
> >> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
> >> http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
> >> http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
> >> http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
> >> http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
> >> http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
> >> http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
> >> http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
> >> http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
> >> http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
> >> http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
> >> http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html
> >>
> >> http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
> >> http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
> >> http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
> >> http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
> >> http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
> >> http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
> >> here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
> >> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
> >> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
> >> http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm
> >>
> >> To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
> >> here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that
> >> there
> >> can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
> >> http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
> >> /natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
> >> http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
> >> http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
> >> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
> >>
> >>
> >> To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
> >> maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
> >> dealing with power and communications.
> >> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
> >> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
> >
And I still haven't seen any detailed evidence that some forms of meat
production cause fewer deaths than crop production, unless it was at
one of those sites, which I'll have a look at.