"usual suspect" > wrote in message ...
> usual suspect adding on in response to Skunky:
> >> On organic farms you won't find the rodent killing
> >> chemicals that turn their insides to mush.
> >
> > Oh, please tell me your source for this information. Here are a few
> > details I can pass along to show otherwise:
> >
> > Organic pesticides cause cancer in rodents (and humans):
> > One of organic farming's most widely used
> > pesticides--pyrethrum--has been classified as a ``likely human
> > carcinogen.'' An advisory committee to the Environmental
> > Protection Agency made the classification two years ago, after
> > pyrethrum caused higher-than-normal numbers of tumors in two
> > different sets of #laboratory# rodents.
> > http://www.cgfi.org/materials/articl...1/jun_8_01.htm

- by Dennis T. Avery.. see below. (# ^ mine)

'Derived from the painted daisy, Chrysanthemum cinerariifolium,
pyrethrins are considered one of the most important natural insecticides.
When you must use a broad spectrum insecticide in the vegetable garden
or lose the crop, this is one of the best choices. Of low toxicity to mammals,
they kill insects quickly. In sunlight they break down and are non-toxic
within a day or less. For best results apply it in the late afternoon or evening.
Use pyrethrins for the hard-to-kill pests such as beetles, squash bugs, and
tarnished plant bugs.'
http://www.iserv.net/~wmize/insctd.htm

'While pyrethroids are a synthetic version of an extract from the
chrysanthemum, they were chemically designed to be more toxic
with longer breakdown times, and are often formulated with synergists,
increasing potency and compromising the human body's ability to
detoxify the pesticide.
.....'
http://www.beyondpesticides.org/pest...yrethroids.pdf

> > Organic pesticides induce Parkinson's Disease-like symptoms in rodents
> > (and humans):
> > Rotenone, a commonly used organic pesticide, has attracted a lot
> > of attention in Dr. Greenamyre's #lab#. In past studies, Dr.
> > Greenamyre and colleagues found that rotenone can induce major
> > features of PD in rats, including slowness, stiffness and
> > tremor. Published in Nature Neuroscience in November 2000, these
> > results support the idea that chronic exposure to environmental
> > pesticides may contribute to the incidence of Parkinson's
> > disease in humans. With the new funding, Dr. Greenamyre will
> > continue to research rodent and cell models of PD to determine
> > which genes cause susceptibility or resistance to the
> > PD-inducing effects of pesticides.
> > http://www.scienceblog.com/community.../20022444.html

Organic pesticides are used in conventional farming.

> > Organic pesticides affect more than just target species:

Organic (system):

> > Some organic pesticides may be toxic to nontargets.

... ; minimize pesticide use'

> > http://www.nysipm.cornell.edu/public...are/which.html

'-Conventional

Synthetic chemicals may be toxic to many nontargets (beneficial insects,
pets, humans, birds, fish, and other wildlife)

Take control; eliminate pests

calendar based applications

All pesticides are poisonous to some form of life; greater use increases risk

Composted municipal sewage may bring heavy metals

Runoff with soluble nutrients and pesticides can wash into waterways after rain

-Organic

Strive for ecological balance and minimize pesticide use; build soil and plant
health to avoid the need for treatment

All pesticides are poisonous to some form of life; use safest approved materials

Composted municipal sewage not allowed; manure must be composted to
avoid active disease bacteria; assess compost quality before use

Runoff can occur with any materials, but less with organic matter that binds
nutrients to soil.'

> > Organic pesticides are as toxic as their synthetic counterparts, and
> > many of them #are banned# under the Rotterdam Convention:
> > The Convention has already been signed by 73 countries –
> > including Brazil – and ratified by 18. It will come into effect
> > once there are 50 signatory countries.The original products list
> > included 22 organic pesticides considered to be highly toxic...
> > http://www.nex.org.br/english/denuci...enenamento.htm
> >
> > Finally, but not because I'm out of ammo on the subject, an organic
> > pesticide called Dichlorodiphenyl trichloroethane #is banned# because of
> > its pervasive toxicity. You probably have heard of it by its initials: DDT.
> > http://www.epa.gov/history/publications/formative6.htm
>
> Here's more. Organic pesticides kill fish:
> While some organic pesticides may be nontoxic or are only
> slightly toxic to people, they may be very toxic to other
> animals. For instance, the organic pesticide ryania is very
> toxic to fish.
> http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm

'It is important to be careful when using any pesticide, even
organic or natural pesticides.
...
Biopesticides are an important group of pesticides that can
reduce pesticide risks..'
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm

> Organic pesticides kill a variety of non-target species, and foods grown
> organically are not labeled "pesticide free":
> Organic pesticides are used widely. Some are toxic. Rotenone
> kills fish. Copper sulphate kills many creatures. In California,
> an organic pesticide, sulphur, represents one-third of all
> pesticide use.

'Organic pesticides are used widely.' ...

Organic pesticides are used widely by conventional farmers.

> For obvious reasons, organic farmers don’t call
> their produce "pesticide free."
> http://www.ontariocorn.org/ocpmag/pestruth.html

'Pesticide residues

Over 400 pesticides are permitted for use in the UK. The incidence and
levels of pesticide residues on foods are monitored annually. 28.6% of
all foods tested in 1999 were found to contain pesticide residues, and
48% of all fruit and vegetables tested (MAFF 2000). The levels found
are typically very low. Just 1.6% of all foods and 3% of fruit and
vegetables exceeded the MRL - maximum residue limit - in 1999.

Seven pesticides are permitted for restricted use in organic farming.
Organic produce is usually found to contain no pesticide residues. When
residues are present, they are typically of significantly lower incidence and
levels than those found in non-organic produce (MAFF 1999, Schüpbach
1986, Reinhardt & Wolf 1986), and result mostly from environmental
pollution from non-organic agriculture (Woese et al. 1997, Bitaud 2000).

'Rigorous safety assessments' are made of all pesticides and it is asserted
that these incidences and levels do not represent a threat to food safety
(FSA 2001). However no such 'rigorous safety assessment' has or can
be made of the infinite number of mixtures of compounds consumers are
typically exposed to. Individual samples contained up to seven different
pesticides in 1999. Synergies resulting in greatly increased toxicity of
pesticides and other agricultural compounds have been observed (Boyd
et al. 1990, Porter et al. 1993, Porter et al. 1999, Thiruchelvam et al. 2000).

Dietary exposure to pesticide residues has been linked to gastrointestinal
and neurological complaints (Ratner et al. 1983), breast milk contamination
(Aubert 1975) and some sperm quality parameters (Juhler et al. 1999,
Abell et al. 1994, Jensen et al. 1996). The British Medical Association
urges a precautionary approach "because the data on risk to human health
from exposure to pesticides are incomplete" (BMA 1992).
...'
http://www.organic.aber.ac.uk/librar...%20quality.pdf

> See also:
> http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuse...etails&id=1677

DENNIS T. AVERY is based in Churchville, Va., and is director of
global food issues for the Hudson Institute of Indianapolis.

'Anti-Organic Lobby Tries to Distort Study Showing Safety of
Organic Food From: Cornucopia Institute

6/15/04
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Mark Kastel 608.625.2042
Will Fantle 715-839-7731

Study Confirms Safety of Organic Food
But Agrichemical Front Group Attempts to Twist Findings

The same right-wing think tank that conspired with John Stossel of ABC News,
in an erroneous attempt to discredit organic food (subsequently forcing an
apology from the network), is at it again. The Hudson Institute, and its
father and son team of Dennis and Alex Avery, are attempting to spin a new
report that actually concluded there was no "statistically different" risk
in the pathogenic contamination of organic food verses its conventionally
produced counterparts.

"For years, the Averys' have been banging the drum trying to suggest to
consumers that organic food is somehow dangerous," said Mark Kastel,
Director of the Organic Integrity Project at The Cornucopia Institute. "In
this case, the study * or any study * is evidently enough ammunition for
them to begin their indiscriminate potshots."

The report in question, published in the May issue of Journal of Food
Protection, looked at produce grown on conventional and organic Minnesota
farms during 2002. Less than 5 percent of the produce from conventional and
organic farms showed contamination with any of the tracked pathogens in
question, and that was before washing at the wholesale level, peeling off
outer leaves, or a thorough washing once the produce arrives in the home of
the ultimate consumer.

"This study was primarily designed to look at the use of composted manure
verses chemical fertilizers at the farm level. The authors of this report
intentionally did not concern themselves with what happened once the produce
was washed and left the farm," Kastel said.

According to Francisco Diez-Gonzalez, the report's chief author and faculty
member at the University of Minnesota, "I had a very heated discussion with
Alex Avery of the Hudson Institute. They were very dissatisfied with our
findings and told me that our interpretations were not 'correct.' They told
me I should have known better than to look for E. coli 0157:H7, because we
wouldn't find any."

Dr. Diez-Gonzalez is not surprised to learn that the Hudson Institute, with
its long record and the backing of agribusiness giants like Monsanto and
DuPont, is now trying to use the independently funded, University of
Minnesota data to discredit organic farming.

Commenting on the Diez-Gonzalez study, Alex Avery called eating organic food
"a crap shoot" and warned that potential cases of diarrhea, typhoid fever
and Reiter's Syndrome await its consumers. "This statement is total a
fabrication and a gross distortion of the Diez-Gonzalez study," charged
Kastel. "Alex Avery will say anything in his petty little war against
organic food and farming"

The only criticism of the research, levied by The Cornucopia Institute, was
that nearly 80 percent of the samples taken during the study came from
organic farms and only 20% from conventional operations. "If conventional
produce was represented as a higher percentage of the total, maybe the
findings would have looked even more favorable, in terms of the compareable
safety of organic products," said the Cornucopia's Kastel. The conventional
sampling was also extremely light in terms of the produce items that were
most susceptible to contamination (leafy greens and lettuce).

According to Dr. Diez-Gonzalez, investigators are attempting to include more
conventional produce in the second and third year of their research.

"One of the positive findings from the Minnesota study is that the potential
for contamination on farms certified as organic by the USDA, under the
federal supervisory program which went into effect in 2002, is demonstrably
lower than for farms that call themselves organic but are not certified,"
noted Kastel.

Federal law now mandates that any commercial organic producer must be
inspected on an annual basis. "It is not surprising that the best
management practices take place on certified farms where the operators are
highly engaged, educated and conforming to the strict regulations in terms
of the use of composted animal manure," Kastel added. "The results are
higher quality and safer produce for the consumer."

http://www.organicconsumers.org/orga...stel061504.cfm

> Copper sulphate is more harmful to a variety of species than its
> conventional counterpart:
> Leake candidly criticized organic farmers for using nasty but
> "natural" pesticides. "The use of copper and sulphur fungicide
> sprays seems inconsistent with the claim that organic
> agriculture is pesticide-free. On examination, the
> eco-toxicology of copper sulphate is undoubtedly more harmful
> and persistent than its conventional counterpart, Mancozeb."
>
> Leake even provided a handy table, showing that the copper
> sulphate used by organic farmers is toxic to humans, very toxic
> to earthworms and fish, moderately toxic to birds and harmful to
> small mammals.
> http://www.cgfi.org/materials/articl...0/sep_8_00.htm

(Also by Avery). See 'Principles of Organic Farming' below.

> Effects of copper sulphate -- an organic pesticide/fungicide -- on a
> variety of species including humans:
> There have been reports of human suicide resulting from the
> ingestion of gram quantities of this material.... Copper sulfate
> is very toxic to fish.... Copper sulfate is toxic to aquatic
> invertebrates, such as crab, shrimp and oysters. Based on data
> on the potential hazards posed by this material to the
> slackwater darter, freshwater mussels, and Solano grass, and in
> an effort to minimize exposure of endangered species to this
> material, applicators in some counties are required to consult
> EPA endangered species bulletins before applying copper sulfate.
> http://tinyurl.com/5y4hm

.....

> Organic pesticides ARE toxins:
> Organic pesticide - not an oxymoron, because many organic
> farmers use pesticides. A pesticide is any compound that kills
> pests. So Rotenone is considered an organic pesticide even
> though it does a fantastic job of killing pests and has
> questionable safety. Rotenone is derived from the roots of
> various South American legumes. It is a nerve poison that
> paralyzes insects. Other organic pesticides include copper
> compounds that can be tough on other organisms and the
> environment. Pyrethrins are pesticides derived from the
> pyrethrum daisies. They are a nerve poison that is effective on
> a wide range of insects. Pyrethrins are moderately toxic to
> mammals and highly toxic to fish. It is illegal to apply them
> around ponds or waterways. So even though it says "organic", it
> can still pack a nasty punch.
> http://www.springledgefarm.com/glossary.htm

....

> How much more evidence do you need, Skunky, before you stop making wild
> claims about the superiority of organic farming techniques with respect
> to concern for human health, wildlife safety, etc.?

You haven't mentioned organic farming techniques, stinky suspect.
Remember "Some organic pesticides may be toxic to nontargets."
...*; minimize pesticide use*? You jelly-headed, clueless Texan.

'What is Organic Farming?

Organic farming is a form of agriculture which does not use synthetic inputs
such as pesticides and fertilizers because of the disruptive effects that the
synthetic chemicals can cause on the ecological balance considered essential
to maintain a sustainable system indefinitely.

Organic farming thus differs from other alternative agriculture systems that
allow the minimal use of these inputs, and it’s from this difference that
organic farming gets its name. However, organic farming is not just
farming without chemicals. Organic growers focus on using techniques such
as crop rotation, proper spacing between plants, incorporation of organic
matter into the soil and use of biological controls to promote optimum
plant growth and minimize pest problems. Application of organic pesticides
are considered a last resort and used sparingly.

All agricultural systems disrupt the natural environment to some extent;
organic agriculture aims to minimize this disruption and to enhance natural
biological cycles. For example, organic farmers emphasize the importance
of a healthy soil to promote a diverse biological population, including
earthworms and microorganisms such as fungi and bacteria that are
beneficial to plants.
...
In the box at right <below> are the principles of organic farming as
stated by the International Federation of Organic Agriculture Movements
(IFOAM, from Organic Farming 1990).

Principles of Organic Farming
•
To produce food of high nutritional quality in sufficient quantity;
•
To work with natural systems rather than seeking to dominate them;
•
To encourage and enhance biological cycles within the farming
system, involving microorganisms, soil flora and fauna, plants and
animals;
•
To increase and maintain the long-term fertility of soils;
•
To use as far as possible renewable resources in locally organized
agricultural systems;
•
To work as much as possible within a closed system with regard
to organic matter and nutrient elements;
•
To give all livestock conditions of life that allow them to perform
all aspects of their innate behavior;
•
To avoid all forms of pollution that may result from agricultural operations;
•
To maintain the genetic diversity of the agricultural system and its
surroundings, including the protection of plant and wildlife habitats;
•
To allow agricultural producers an adequate return and satisfaction
from their work including a safe working environment;
•
To consider the wider social and ecological impact of the farming system.

http://www2.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/free...f/VCU_4_99.pdf

The proof is in the pudding.

'Surveys by the ministry of agriculture and the British Trust
for Ornithology have shown the beneficial effects of organic
farming on wildlife. It's not difficult to see why: the pesticides
used in intensive agriculture kill many soil organisms, insects
and other larger species. They also kill plants considered to
be weeds. That means fewer food sources available for other
animals, birds and beneficial insects and it also destroys many
of their habitats.
http://www.soilassociation.org/web/s.../benefits.html

'..This comprehensive European-wide literature review provides
evidence on the whole range of environmental benefits of organic
farming. It concludes that, in comparison with non-organic farming,
organic farming tends to support greater biodiversity, conserves
soil fertility and stability better, does not pose any risk of water
pollution from pesticides, results in 40-60% lower carbon dioxide
emissions per hectare, nitrous oxide and ammonia emission
potential appears to be lower, energy consumption is usually lower,
and energy efficiency is usually higher.
...'
http://www.soilassociation.org/sa/sa...Sheets05092001

'The independent research quoted in this report found substantially
greater levels of both abundance and diversity of species on the
organic farms, as outlined below:

Plants: Five times as many wild plants in arable fields, 57% more
species, and several rare and declining wild arable species found
only on organic farms.
Birds: 25% more birds at the field edge, 44% more in-field in
autumn/winter; 2.2 times as many breeding skylarks and higher
skylark breeding rates.
Invertebrates: 1.6 times as many of the arthropods that comprise
bird food; three times as many non-pest butterflies in the crop areas;
one to five times as many spider numbers and one to two times as
many spider species.
Crop pests: Significant decrease in aphid numbers; no change in
numbers of pest butterflies.
Distribution of the biodiversity benefits: Though the field boundaries
had the highest levels of wildlife, the highest increases were found
in the cropped areas of the fields.
Quality of the habitats: Both the field boundary and crop habitats
were more favourable on the organic farms. The field boundaries
had more trees, larger hedges and no spray drift.
...'
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/pn48/pn48p15b.htm