"John Coleman" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dutch" > wrote in message
> ...
> 8<
> > Drawing conclusions without data is dangerous. In reality you (vegans)
are
> > compelled to follow the rule that consuming animal products is wrong
> because
> > of "exploitation", a political principle irrationally extended to
animals.
>
> Why is irrational to believe that non human animals should be as free as
> humans?

Because allowing all animals to be free would make it impractical to harvest
them for food.

> > > compare veganic to any animal farming
> >
> > You did it again. Compare ALL foods against each other on a level
playing
> > field, including plant foods against plant foods, and commerically
> produced
> > plant foods against meat products.
>
> Since commercial meat animals are ineffeciently fed commercial plant
foods,
> the cds for them are higher IMO.

What about small local livestock farms operated as co-ops with short
transportation distances and only grass and by-products as supplemental
feed? How does that compare to fruit and vegetables grown on monoculture
factory farms, stored, transported thousands of miles, processed and
shrink-wrapped, labelled as "cruelty-free food"? Both of those are widely
available food types, and vegans are afraid to compare them.

> Most my diet is organic manually harvested
> fruits and veggies BTW. The "most vegan" diet would be locally grown
veganic
> foods.

The "perfect" animal food would be 1500lb of meat from a single animal
death. So what? Lets talk about ALL foods.

> > > yes, these are seen as cruel as well, bt I think you will find most
> > > literature and time is dedicated to slanging animal farming
> >
> > Because they comprise 99% of the animals used, not because they are seen
> as
> > less moral.
>
> ok
>
> > > animal liberation makes sense - it simply means not exploiting
animals,
> > not
> > > using them
> >
> > Plant liberation makes sense too, on a semantic level.
>
> so - exploited animals are sentient, they can suffer like humans

Exploitation is not synonymous with suffering, that is another common vegan
equivocation. Mass-production of plant foods causes plenty of animal
suffering and NO exploitation of animals. My employer exploits me, it
doesn't cause me to suffer.


> > > issue, and veganism is no more religious than womens liberation
> >
> > Women's liberation had a religious fervor to it 100 years ago, but we
have
> > learned that women are nothing less than just people. Now it's a
> mainstream
> > idea.
>
> womens liberation is and was never anything like a religion - the fervor
in
> it and some religions is just a similarity

That's what I said, AR/veganism is "like a religion". Woman's lib evolved
beyond that, veganism will not and cannot, it is fraught with too much
clouded thinking.

>
> > Animal liberation has an inherent characteristic that will never allow
it
> to
> > reach this level, animals are not human, animals are ubiquitous, we can
> > never do anything without harming them.
>
> or as is often the case other people

This is what I mean by clouded thinking. If you think that is a rational
analogy, you are beyond hope.

- but that does not mean we cannot try
> to avoid the excesses

I'm not a fan of excesses.

>
> > > Irrelivent because veganic agriculture is real, is done and doable.
> >
> > It's not a credible alternative.
>
> why not

It's too labour intensive.