"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
....
....
>Big SNIP of interesting post<<
>
> Hey Dusty,
>
> I am proud to be called your friend...
Why thank you kindly, sir. It is indeed my pleasure to call you that...

> That said, what did I offer that you were disagreeing with?

I believe it was because I said:
>> And no...you cannot "make" a "sourdough culture" out of yeast, potatoes,
>> grapes, or any of the other litany of processes that so many try to foist
>> off on unsuspecting folks. Yes, they will create something that may even
be
>> active and look like sourdough...but those paths have about the same
>> possibility of success and are similar to trying to make your own
penicillin
>> by using your shoe-scrapings...

....
To which you replied:
> Regarding the potato or grape approach:
>
> With respect, I do not agree with Dusty. Those things can be used to
> make good starters, but there is a better way that the approach
> usually suggested:
I tried to take pains to show that yes, you can indeed get something that
seems to be "working" or that looks or acts like sourdough. And, it's also
possible to get exactly what you'd hoped for--a good, viable, *and* tasty
culture. But the odds would seem to be against the user; especially a new
user.

Regarding (commercial bakers) yeast: It doesn't do well in a lacto-bacilli
dominated environment. Somebody once posted a note saying how many
generations it took before they all died. Although I didn't retain it, I do
recall that they will all die as the commercial yeasties can't abide the
LB's--and it doesn't take all that long. Most SD recipes in which I've seen
bakers yeast used (and gotten to talk to the author) said they added it in
order to guarantee results (rising), and make the process both faster and
more predictable. In my experience, no commercial yeast is ever needed to
get SD to rise.

I guess that from my painful experience, I'd always suggest that sourdough
newbie's DON'T DO what I did, but get a real starter and learn what it takes
to use that. In that process they'll learn to doctor it, fix it, rescue it,
use it, and most importantly they will learn what *should* be happening with
it. *Then*, when they've got that down, then it's time to experiment on
capturing the wild yeast...

The only reliable process that I've ever observed first-hand action that
yielded success after success, was Samartha's rye flour based process. At
least in my experience, unless you use such a process one is unlikely to
achieve success--which I define as being able to make a true, risen,
sour-tasting bread worthy of the name, Sourdough. I've personally never
seen any of the fruit and other ingredient based cultures work in a useful
manner. Is it possible? Certainly. But not easily in my experience.

But hey! That's only my opinion--formed over the carcasses of lots of dead
and dying "things" in my culture, and through the pain and humiliation of
eating lots of loaves of some very unpalatable bread. Of course, YMMV! As
it is, a kind fellow from Ontario sent me a few crumbs of his starter. I
fired it up and made wonderful bread right outta the box! But most
importantly, I learned how to bake with it. After that, Samartha's
instructions had new meaning...and I made lots of good starters. Although
they all worked and tasted okay, none managed to approach the flavor and
ease of use that the gift of a bit of starter did. So again, I think a
newbie should eschew raising their own starter, and use something with a bit
of a pedigree. But, like I said, that's only my opinion...you're each
welcome to do as you wish...(:-)!

Okay, I've gotta scram outta here...it's gettin' late. I've got to crack
that wine cellar open and rescue my latest iteration of your (nearly)
Poilne. It's been cranking in there all day...and should be just about
ready to toss in the fire...


Catch ya later my friends,
Dusty
--
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>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."