Hello Fred, Kenneth & all;

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 09:52:24 -0500, "Fred" >
> wrote:
>
> >My starter was made from a formula in my professional baking book so I
> >assume it worked for someone at some time before. The book also mentions
> >that starters that are moved will change because the change of natural
> >yeasts, so my feeling was that my own starter would get a local "flavor"
in
> >a similar manner to one transported from San Francisco. I'll give it a
> >couple of days and see what happens. You're probably right. Take care.
> >
> >Fred
....
> >"Dusty" > wrote in message
> ...
....
> >> As a SD beginner, I suggest that you purchase a starter that has a bit
of
> >a
> >> pedigree. It will help you by giving you a solid foundation from which
to
> >> grow your sourdough experience. Trust me, neither Joe Heitz, nor
Robert
> >> Mondavi leave the fermenting of their fine wines to "whatever they find
on
> >> their grapes that day..."
....
> >> And no...you cannot "make" a "sourdough culture" out of yeast,
potatoes,
> >> grapes, or any of the other litany of processes that so many try to
foist
> >> off on unsuspecting folks. Yes, they will create something that may
even
> >be
> >> active and look like sourdough...but those paths have about the same
> >> possibility of success and are similar to trying to make your own
> >penicillin
> >> by using your shoe-scrapings...
....
[Kenneth replies here]
> Howdy,
>
> Regarding the potato or grape approach:
>
> With respect, I do not agree with Dusty. Those things can be used to
> make good starters, but there is a better way that the approach
> usually suggested:
>
> The critters that we want to culture for a starter are in the grain,
> and also in the baker (don't ask...) The other things (grapes, etc.)
> don't really hurt anything, nor do they help. When you are ready to
> mix the grapes, flour, and water, do yourself a favor, and first eat
> the grapes. They follow the remaining instructions. You are likely to
> end up with a starter that you can bake with happily.
>
> Next, the issue of geography seems to be a myth. I am no biologist,
> but the commonly suggested explanation (that the local yeasts will
> take over) is rather like suggesting that a herd of cattle will
> eventually become a gaggle of geese if the cows roam too close to the
> river.
>
> There are billions upon billions of active yeasts and lactobacilli in
> every droplet of a viable starter. If they are properly fed, nothing
> will take 'em over.

Regretfully, I must disagree a little with my good friend Kenneth--or at
least clarify my previous remarks. Kenneth is correct, there are literally
10's of thousand different kinds of yeasts and lacto-bacilli. But not all
combinations of those two will work together to make the breads sourdough
bakers crave. Some simply won't collaborate. Some combinations won't rise
right, some rise too much or too fast, some get too sour, some don't get
sour enough--in addition to a thousand other variations. And yes! You
might indeed generate *that* combination that presages another "San
Francisco sourdough" strain... But it's highly unlikely.

If you eat a (non-sourdough) raised bread, it's most likely that it was made
with Saccharomyces cerevisiae, a yeast strain specifically cloned and raised
for the baking industry. This and similar yeasts have served man in one
form or another for over 8,000 years. The first recorded usage--probably a
cousin of our sourdough--began with the ancient Egyptians and Babylonians
about 3,000 or so years ago. They found the soft fragrant breads created in
this manner superior to the hard flat breads that had been their staple.
Although Saccharomyces cerevisiae is the result of nearly a century of
specific breeding and care, its much older and wilder cousin is: sourdough.
The microorganism we know as "sourdough" is naturally present in flour. Far
from being a uniform servant, the wild yeast that we call sourdough is
really a symbiotic collection of organisms that, over millennia, have been
cultivated in successive stages. Although first isolated and identified by
Louis Pasteur in 1857 as the causative agent for fermentation, it's been in
use for far longer then that.

"Sourdough" is a symbiotic mixture of several specific wild yeasts and
lactobacilli in the approximate ratio of 1:100. The yeast is a form of
plant, a microscopic fungus actually. "Lactobacilli" is a somewhat fancy,
yet shortened, name for any number of a specific species of lactose (a form
of sugar) feeding bacteria. Symbiotic means that they have formed a
survivable, long-term working relationship in which each serves the other.
Simplified: the yeast convert some the complex carbohydrates in the flour
into simpler starches, lactose, carbon-dioxide, and a little alcohol.

According to "Yeast Technology" by Reed and Nagowithana, the indigenous
yeast in rye flour are the strains of Candida crusei, Pichia satoi,
Saccharomyces cerevisiae, or Toruplupsis holmii. The latter is synonymous
with the yeast found to comprise most sourdough microbes. It will work with
a variety of lactobacilli strains as well. Lactobacillus brevis and L.
plantarum, etc., but in low population density.

Like all living things, the yeast cells don't live forever. The
lactobacilli, eat other flour components, the sugars the yeast produce, as
well as dead yeast cells. In turn, the lactobacilli excrete a variety of
acid like materials (the source of the "sour" in sourdough). The
lactobacilli also secrete antibiotic cycloheximides which "sterilize" the
dough by killing "foreign" organisms (other yeast strains--wild or
domestic), bacteria, and so on... This keeps the mixture "pure" and allows
the "partner" yeast, which is resistant to their specific cycloheximides, to
flourish.

Like all communities, this complex culture follows a continuous cycle of
interrelated events. At any given point in the life cycle of this living
system; one organism or the other is either in rise, plateau, or decline.
Many factors effect these cycles; age, time, temperature, the flour,
hydration (water), the exact species of yeast, the exact species of
lactobacilli, and so on...

Now, having said all that (actually, clipped and pasted from mine & other
websites), YES! You can make your own sourdough culture! And no, you can't
make it from ordinary bakers yeast. The lacto-bacilli will kill commercial
yeast (over time). Most "sourdough" recipes that contain ordinary bakers
yeast do so because most folks either don't have a good viable starter, or
haven't learned to be patient enough to properly use it. Yeast (commercial)
is faster, easier, and far more predictable. This ensures a more reliable
outcome...which translates into a happy baker...and a successful recipe. A
*real* sourdough recipe does NOT need ANY help from commercial yeasts!

Now, if you can't get a bit of starter from a friend and you MUST make your
own culture, then the best instructions for doing so that I've found (and
I've done what you'd done...and dozens of crazier schemes as well) is he
http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html. This fellow is a nearly
obsessive sourdough enthusiast. While he & I don't agree on some things,
his words can be counted on to be accurate and true. If you must make a
scratch built culture, I highly recommend that you use Samartha's technique.
I'm sure there are others that are equally good, and I intend no slight to
any of the rest not mentioned. I just know that I've used this process and
it gives good results.

Later all,
Dusty
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