"Gideon Stargrave" > wrote
[..]
>> 1. You are presuming that veal calves are treated cruelly, and although
>> that is a common perception, the link I gave states otherwise. You are
>> free to believe as you wish, but if you want me to believe you, you must
>> provide more than a common perception that as far as I know is out of
>> date.
>>
>
> a) i read nothing on that page says anything about the cows being anywhere
> but in their "partition." Here is the part c&p'ed directly from that
> link:
>
> Q: How are veal calves housed?
>
> A. Milk-fed veal calves are housed in a well-lit barn, allowing family
> veal farmers to easily monitor calves for changes in health, behavior and
> eating patterns.
>
> Modern veal housing is designed to partition the animals only up to the
> shoulder level, ensuring calves visual and physical interactions with
> their neighbors. Calves are also tethered which allows farmers to gently
> and safely handle calves for purposes of contact, feeding, treatment and
> sanitizing, while also reducing the risk of calves harming themselves and
> each other. Calves can comfortably lie down in natural positions, stand up
> and groom themselves. This type of housing and tethering allows animals to
> receive their own feed, individual care and attention. Most importantly,
> individual housing has been shown to help prevent the spread of disease by
> limiting calf-to-calf contact while allowing socialization.
>
> sounds like fun, can i sign you up?

No thanks, maybe you want to be a vole or nesting bird chewed up by a
harvester or a plough or exposed to predators. Maybe you want to volunteer
to be poisoned by herbicides and pesticides like the birds in orchards,
maybe you could take up residence in a silo where you can be poisoned like a
mouse. Those sound like worse fates than a veal calf.

> maybe just a weekend getaway then. that truly does not sound cruelty free
> to me.

That's your delusion, there's no such thing as a suffering-free meal.

> besides, killing an animal for food, regardless of how you treat them is
> obviously *not* cruelty free.

That's your opinion, I don't agree, and neither do 98% of the people in the
world, including the Dali Lama and The Pope.

>> 2. There is no such thing as cruelty-free eating. Animals are harmed in
>> many ways at all stages of agriculture.
>
> look, i understand that it is nearly impossible to live 100% cruelty free.

You're not using the term cruelty correctly.

> you will most likely argue that even the organic vegetables i exclusively
> eat are probably fertilized with manure. first of all, probably.

They are also probably treated with organic poisons which can be as deadly
as any synthetic ones.

second of all, my point was, that eating cheese, *directly*
> contributes to the seclusion, and murder of calves born to cows,

You are abusing the word murder.

> deliberately impregnated just so people can have a bit -o- tasty cheese.

Animals are deliberately and collaterally killed in the process of producing
every crop.

> wanna sign your significant other, or your sister up for that?(or you, if
> you happen to be female, since i don't really know for sure)

I find that comment sanctimonious and offensive.

i feel
> pretty confident that if a cost effective manure free fertilizer were on
> the market(which there may be) most, if not all, organic farmers would
> switch over in a heartbeat.

I'm certain that thinking that makes you feel quite good.

> the point is that if the vegetarian choice is made for moral, cruelty free
> reasons, i believe that the choice should be rethought.

That's exactly the point I am trying to make.

i was at no point incendiary! nor was i at no
> point rude to you, or anyone!

As I said above, I find your self-righteous attitude very offensive. How
dare you ask "how would you like to be kept in a stall?" as if the diet and
lifestyle of vegans like you were above reproach, as if you never made
selfish choices that had negative impacts of animals and the environment.

> i asked a question to provoke thought.

How noble of you. How about provoking some thought that doesn't place you on
a pedestal and doesn't imply that other people are cruel monsters, if that
is possible for you.