>
>"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message =
...
>
>> I mix at relatively high speed for longer than most bakers and stretch =
>
>> and fold a lot, making a dough (or glop<g>) that is extremely elastic=20
>> and extensible ...
>
>John, the experiment at =
>http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/Francense/
>seems to suggest that the stretching and folding is more important than
>the long, high-speed mixing. Compare with my recent other picture shows
>http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ead/index.html
>http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ad2/index.html
>where the dough was very thoroughly kneaded in a bread machine.
>
>What do you think?
>
>---
>DickA
>
Dick,

I agree with you, the real reason I normally mix for a relatively long time and
high speed when making high hydration dough is that a well developed glop is a
lot easier to handle during the initial stretch and fold cycles . I can, and
occasionally do, make big holed bread entirely by hand, mixing the dough on
the counter ( flour in a pile, make a well, liquid into the well, incorporate
with your fingers, I'm sure you've "been there done that") and "kneading" it by
grabbing handfuls and pulling up to stretch and mix the dough. It then goes
into the S+F cycles and, usually, needs one or two more cycles than dough mixed
intensively.

If I were forced to make a quantitative assessment of the contributions made,
to the developed dough's elasticity by mixing and S+F I would put it at about
25% mixing and 75% stretch and fold.

That reasoning does not, however, apply to the really high-hydration doughs
(100% +) I make regularly. They need intensive mixing and are not stretched
and folded because it's extremely difficult to do so and it's not necessary.

John