"williamwaller" > wrote in message
news:mailman.11.1093486323.1141.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
> On 8/25/04 6:57 PM, "Dee Randall"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> > "Kenneth" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 02:34:22 -0400, "Dee Randall"
> >> <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote:
> >>
> >>> if one has a chef the
> >>> size of a walnut, would this chef be used in place of a starter that
was
> >>> called for in the recipe, or would it be IN ADDITION to the starter
> > called
> >>> for in the recipe.
> >>
> >> Hi Dee,
> >>
> >> The chef IS (a small amount of) the starter. (Ignoring here the
> >> specifics of its stage of development.)
> >>
> >> The chef would be used to make as much starter as you need for a
> >> particular recipe.
> >>
> > OK, using your answer and terminology:
> > So the "small amount of " starter (the chef) would be used to make more
> > starter, right? NOW, when bakers talk about adding the chef (which is
a
> > small amount of starter [and I'm assuming that this is left over from
> > yesterday's baking or two or whatever) to their dough to make bread,
this is
> > not in actuality true, but they actually use this chef to make MORE
> > starter to add to their dough to make bread -- NOW, how do they do this
in
> > one day?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Dee
>
> Dee,
>
> I keep a starter specifically for pizza dough and I use the "retained
piece"
> or "chef" method for it. Whenever I make a pizza, I keep the trimmings, or
> the excess dough rolled but not used for the pies. These pieces go into a
> small plastic container and are stored in the refrigerator. When I'm ready
> for another pizza, I take these same pieces, place them in water for a
> couple of hours to soften them, then add the necessary balance of flour
and
> mix/knead to complete a fresh dough. That dough gets aged overnight in the
> refrigerator before it's used and its' extra saved for the next cycle.
>
> Although I choose to age the finished dough overnight for additional
flavor,
> it's not necessary. They will usually fully proof in about 6 hours (plus
the
> 2 hours for softening). I should add here that we're talking about 3-4
> walnuts worth of initial material not one.
>
> I don't see much difference between keeping a more liquid starter or a
chef.
> The chef stores better... meaning it does not require refreshment (within
> reason) but you must hydrate it to disperse the culture evenly in your
> dough, whereas a more liquid starter is ready to go.
>
> Peter Reinhart is an advocate of retained dough starters. In Bread Baker's
> Apprentice he has some formulas that use both: meaning old dough and
liquid
> starter, in the same bread. I have tried this but only notice a flavor
> difference when the dough is not overnighted in the refrigerator. If you
> cannot run a long, cool fermentation cycle, the addition of retained dough
> makes a better bread. I imagine the lack of refrigeration was what the
> European bakers were trying to address with this method.

Thanks for taking the time to explain this for me. Refreshing this in water
helps me to understand it a little better and your explanation that the
walnut (in your example, several walnuts) is all that is needed. I didn't
know whether the "walnuts' were used "in addition" to more starter; i.e.,
whether extra starter was used.

> If you > cannot run a long, cool fermentation cycle, the addition of
retained dough
> makes a better bread.

This is good to know as I always prefer not to refrigerate.
Thanks so much.
Dee