On 8/26/04 9:36 AM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "williamwaller" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.11.1093486323.1141.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
>
>> [ ... ]
>
>> Peter Reinhart is an advocate of retained dough starters. In Bread Baker's
>> Apprentice he has some formulas that use both: meaning old dough and
>> liquid starter, in the same bread. I have tried this but only notice a flavor
>> difference when the dough is not overnighted in the refrigerator.
>
> To me it seems that old dough is a starter that has hardly been started. It
> has got some yeast and probably some other microorganisms. Mixed with
> an active starter, its microorganisms must constitute a very minute minority,
> however.
>
> Anyway, that procedure is categorically a technique of starter-culture
> manipulation, and therefore, by me, relatively, if not totally, inefficacious,
> inasmuch as the sourdough flavors develop later on (towards the end of
> the rise).
>
>> If you cannot run a long, cool fermentation cycle, the addition of retained
>> dough makes a better bread. I imagine the lack of refrigeration was what
>> the European bakers were trying to address with this method.
>
> I do not know what part of the procedure the fermentation cycle is, if it
> is not the whole of it til bake. It continues to be a mystery to me that any
> one would want to run all of it, or any part of it, cold, if warm were
> available, since all aspects of it are accelerated by warmth. What is it
> about European bakers -- do they lack refrigerators? Well, certainly
> not the Old ones, maybe some of the new ones.
>
> I recommend to forget Peter Reinhart (, Joe Ortiz, Nancy Silverton, et al.)
> -- he (they) just get(s) people all confused.
>
> It is possible to tell how to make SD bread without saying "chef", "biga"
> "levain", "old dough", "poolish", etc. You can do it without even saying
> "fermentation", using the descriptive power of everyday English. Writers
> avoid that, however, in the interest of making their books long enough to
> command a price.

Dick,

The question of aging or not aging dough seems to have been batted around by
this august group for a long while. As you know, I am in the aging camp.
Been doing it for years, figured it out on my own, though we might agree
that more knowledgeable bakers were retarding fermentation before either of
us were born.

I would not dispute your comment about inefficacious technique. Instead I
wonder if our differing opinions are directed more by the cultures we employ
than we recognize. I believe my cultures benefit (or need) a retardation
phase to mature most appropriately. Perhaps yours do not.

It is possible that everyone on this list agrees that one can make fabulous
bread without calling it bread, or, when making what-ever we might call it,
to forego the "officious" nomenclature about it. You might notice I chose to
call my "chef" retained dough, which is how I picture it.

But Dick, how can you ding the bread writers...

It is so discouraging to walk into the grocery store and see what most
people settle for. Any author who raises the level of awareness that there
is an alternative is to be commended. It is their readership that eventually
comes here.

Will