On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 21:16:15 +0000, rick etter wrote:
> "Mike Charlton" > wrote in message
> news
>> It may be the case that the majority of vegans aren't really eating a
>> vegan diet. I think that's a bit sad. If they could be properly educated
>> they could potentially start adressing some of the other important
>> problems. As it stands many vegans prefer to stay blissfully ignorant.
>> It is unfortunate, but luckily not everyone feels this way.
> ========================
> Part of the point is even *if* they are eating a vegan diet, that in itself
> means almost nothing compared to the rest of their lifestyle. I say they
> wish to remain terminally ignorant. Even after being told about the rest of
> their lives, it's only their diet that really matters.
For some that is the case. Luckily it is not true for everyone. I'm not
sure why we're even talking about this. You really *do* seem to enjoy
changing the subject so that you can slag people off :-). Well, I'll try
not to interfere with your fun. Slag away :-) I'm not sure what you hope
to gain by it, but if it eases your pain you might as well continue.
>> I'm not sure what "real" means, but I take heart in your use of the word
>> "yet".
> ====================
> One that actually believes in veganism, and *lives* their lives that way.
> If you're here on usenet, you not a vegan, period. Veganism is not a diet.
Well, that is a valuable definition. And for the purposes of this
discussion, I will freely admit that I am not a vegan. How does this
change anything? My understanding is that you are upset about some people
being hypocritical. I think it would be very difficult to find anyone
who was not hypocritical in *some* respect.
For instance, do you maintain that it is a *good* thing to kill animals
due to a communications medium like the internet? Is it *good* to kill
animals with power generation? Or is it bad? You make a big deal about
it. If it is not bad, why worry about it? Sure, it will worry some
people and not others. Does it worry you? If it does, why are you
killing animals in this way? If it does not worry you, why do you mention
it?
Hypocracy abounds. It is part of the human condition. However, you seem
to get a kick out of telling people how awful they are. By all means,
please continue if you enjoy it. When you are done, why not help me
figure out exactly how many animals are killed in farming operations. You
say that you have proven it is a lot. I do not see that information. I
see than many animals *live* in fields and that synthesized pesticides and
fertilizer in runoff kill animals. I do not see any information wrt
organic farming.
> As I've said repeatedly, I think that the essence of your message
>> is very valuable. I'm willing to bet that many vegans don't consider
>> all the ways they interact or harm other animals or the environment.
> ====================
> Here on usenet, that number is almost zero. Try going back in the archives
> and reading some of the stupidity that has always been part of their simple
> rule for their simple minds.
Is ignorance a reason to belittle someone? Even if someone refuses to be
enlightened, do they deserve to be called "simple"? I have shown that you
are completely ineffective in your ability to communicate a valuable
lesson. You, yourself, have complained that people refuse to listen to
you. You blame others, but the fault is in you. Does the fact that you
are unwilling to change mean that *you* are simple? I think not. Wisdom
comes to all people in their own time.
> You want aggressive? Where have I ever wished someone to die? Where have I
> ever gleefully posted items about someone dying? Those are standard
> stock-n-trade posts for the *compassionate* vegans. I'm can be abrasive,
> yes I admit that. I can be resonable when someone starts out being
> reasonable. Reread my first replies to you. They were quite calm and
> reasonable. You complained that when i discussed what I have seen from
> vegans here on usenet, because apparently you saw too much of yourself in
> those desxcriptions I guess. I never said anything about you at all in
> those posts that I remember.
I agree that many people are more agressive than you. That does not mean
that you are not agressive. I have complained that you assume things of
me that aren't true. Even when I have alerted you to this fact, you do
not ask me what the truth is. You merely complain about other people.
I am not interested in other people. I am not interested in your views on
veganism. I am interested in reducing the number of collateral deaths due
to farming. So far, despite the amount of energy you have expended on
this topic, you have shown very little interest in discussing it. Do you
have an opinion on the topic or is this just a platform for you to
complain? If it is the latter, continue for as long as you want. But
please send me email when you are ready to return to the subject. I will
still be interested.
> I far more right than the vegans claim that I am posting in reply to. The
> original claims are by vegans. That their diet causes no death and
> suffering, or that their diet causes less death and suffering. They make
> these claims categorically about "any" vegan diet compared to "any" meat
> included diet. Again, I have no need to provide the 'actual' numbers, but I
> have provided proof that the death and suffering of animals occurs in large
> numbers for a vegans diet.
I would be surprised if you did not think you were more right than the
people you complain about. But that really does not interest me. I am
interested in how many deaths occur due to farming and how to prevent them.
As you say, you have no need to provide "actual" numbers, but if you don't
want to say anything other than what prompted me to ask the questions
initially, why are you here? You have typed and typed and typed, but I
am still no closer to understanding the answers to my questions.
Please do not misunderstand me. I am grateful for the information that I
*have* gotten from you. It has been mostly very unpleasant, but I have
learned a lot. Several of the links you sent were new to me and I have
enjoyed reading them. I can tell that you are a bright person and it
seems such a waste that you can not seem to find a way to carry on a
conversation without insulting someone. I really believe that many people
could learn a lot from you if you spoke in a way that would cause them to
listen.
I suppose it is your revenge on those that seem to have made your life
difficult. That their ignorance bothers you so much is hopeful to me.
You are obviously highly motivated to educate. But you seem to be too
obsessed with your hate and revenge to be positive. That saddens me
deeply.
But, I think this is really too personal to discuss in an open forum. If
you wish to discuss it further, please feel free to email me. I am
entirely at your disposal.
Mike