On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:11:42 +0000, rick etter wrote:

> "Mike Charlton" > wrote in message
> news
>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 04:10:28 +0000, rick etter wrote:

> I've never told anybody what they have to eat. I point out the ignorance of
> their universal claim about veganism. That they refuse to accept the fact
> that their diet is not the panacea they like to believe is part of their
> religious brainwashing.

You do have at least *some* evidence that there are people who prefer not
to eat meat, but don't believe veganism is a panacea. If I haven't
convinced you of that, then you're not really listening. In fact, I could
add more weight to your argument that mindlessly following a particular
doctrine can lead to bad things. But I'm not really in the mood to start
more arguments today.

> LOL Loss of habitat due to pastures being fenced? What a hoot!! You're
> really stretching now. Graze areas are not 'lost habitat'. Wild ruminants
> don't even notice fences.

That's true. I was just supposing. You can always set the number at 0.
I don't mind. I just wanted you to think about it. There *are*
problems with fences and animals. I seem to remember problems with the
Australian dingo fence for instance. But then I'd have to get off my
lazy ass and look it up...

[ lots of arguments where you say that growing soy-beans is a "bad idea" ]

> Still want to play?

Absolutely. Like I said, I'm open to whatever you find out. I just want
the info. You seem to have more of it than me. So go for it. Again, I'm
talking about 3.35 bushels. I looked up the average yield for soybeans
(40 bushels per acre). That means ~0.08 acres of land. Really, it
should be less, but I'm supposing that people won't eat the okara (I do,
it's great in veggie-burgers and such).

>> Finally, I would like references so that I do the calculations as well.
>>
>> I'd do this, but you guys have a *lot* more info than I do on this and
>> frankly, I wouldn't know where to begin. If you really think it is
>> important to get me to eat meat, then here's your chance!
> ======================
> No one cares if you eat meat, that's the point. The problem is the
> hypocritical religious beliefs of vegans that claim their diet is
> somehow 'better', without ever being able to prove their claims.

I think this is a fair point. I don't like the fact that people are
mislead or ignorant any more than the next guy. However, you seem
to take the position of the most extreme members of the group and
apply it to everyone. Personally, I don't think that's fair. Granted,
the extreme people are loud, so it's hard to hear the moderates, but
they exist.

> All I
> do is provide an example that blows all their ignorant beliefs out of
> the water.

Why do you want to blow people out of the water? Instead, could you
gently releive them of their ignorance? That would be far more effective,
IMHO.

> Why did you drop the subject of exotic foods, in the other
> thread, that seem to be favored by vegans without even making any reply
> about it?

Hmm... It's strange, I seem to be missing one of my posts. It's possible
that I accidently didn't send it. In my post I agreed with you. Most
vegans eat too many non-local foods. I mentioned one way of vegan eating
called shoujin riori (it's a japanese buddist tradition) where they only
eat local produce that's in season. I'm looking into it, but the going is
slow (my Japanese is quite poor). I'm curious to see how they manage in
the winter.

> Too close to home? That why the sudden concentration on soy
> products?

Actually, I don't eat very much soy. I occasionally make my own tofu,
which I tend to eat with just a bit of shoyu (soy sauce). I then take
the okara (pulp from the tofu making process) and use it for soy/oat
burgers and as a thickener in stews. But generally, I like other legumes
(black beans especially). I also eat a lot of grains (wheat, oats, corn
and some rice).

However, since many people equate tofu with "meat substitute", I thought
I'd use that. I certainly don't use it that way (well, except if I make
my braised tofu, but that's a very rare exception). One reason I don't
eat tofu very often is that it's 50% calories from fat. It's hardly
a health food :-). The okara is pretty good for you, though.

>> > whether they are vegan or
>> >> any other ways of thinking. but that's just a kind of person; just
> cause
>> >> you've run across some vegans who don't think critically, doesn't
>> >> mean
> you
>> >> should put us all in the same box. you seem to have some
>> >> interesting
> and
>> >> valuable stuff to contribute here, why not try to contribute in a
> positive
>> >> way and try not to alienate folks with the 'evil vegans'
> generalizations?
>> > ===============
>> > Ummm, I haven't seen anybody post that statement. You have a guilty
>> > conscience or somthing?
>>
>> Actually, I keep getting this impression as well. Perhaps it's just
>> the wording you're using. Perhaps you could a more neutral way to get
>> your point across. So far I've seen you make blanket statements that
>> vegans are liars and that they have simple minds.
> ======================
> Yes, they seem to be. Did you see the poster I was talking about in
> other thread? Claims that "no" pesticides are allowed in organic
> farming. That has to be beyond ignorance and into direct, deliberate
> lying.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by
incompetance. Pesticides are very common in organic farming. As
are animal based fertilizers. I don't reckon that most vegans
think about that much. I'm really not sure how you would grow a lot
of the heavy feeding plants without bloodmeal, bonemeal and fish
emulsion. I would say that like most people in the western world, vegans
are generally clueless about farming practices.

It may be the case that the majority of vegans aren't really eating a
vegan diet. I think that's a bit sad. If they could be properly educated
they could potentially start adressing some of the other important
problems. As it stands many vegans prefer to stay blissfully ignorant.
It is unfortunate, but luckily not everyone feels this way.

> Every one of them here has claimed that their diet is somehow
> cruelty-free, or the 'most' cruelty-free. They've never been able to
> back up their lies, er claims, and it is too easy to show them wrong.

I'm really trying not to criticize here, but you don't show much tolerance
in listening to the people you are talking to. You seem to assume that
everyone has the same point of view and disregard anything anyone says
that doesn't fit your predisposition. I know several vegans who
make no such claim. I suppose YMMV, but if you gave people a chance
now and again, you might be surprised.

> Do you mean all vegans, or
>> just some vegans? I'm sure we can all agree on the latter, just as we
>> can agree that some meat eaters are liars and that some of them have
>> simple minds.
> ====================
> Again, as I have said before, I'm talking about the vegans I have met on
> usenet. A "real" vegan would not be here on usenet. I haven't changed
> my mind yet....

I'm not sure what "real" means, but I take heart in your use of the word
"yet". As I've said repeatedly, I think that the essence of your message
is very valuable. I'm willing to bet that many vegans don't consider
all the ways they interact or harm other animals or the environment.
Encouraging people to look at these issues is a good thing to do. It
would be nice, though, if you could be a little less intolerant. I, for
one, am trying to work through a lot of what you are saying, but it's
very difficult to do so when you are constantly being so agressive about
it.

I suppose there's no reason for you to help me with any of this stuff. I
got the impression that you actually wanted to. Personally, I don't
believe you are here just so that you can get into arguments.
You put far too much effort into it for that. I think deep down you
really want to help make the world a better place. I could be wrong.

My invitation to help me still stands. I would like to have some concept
of how many animals are killed in farming. I seem to have deleted the
part where you say it's unfair of me to ask that of you. Well, if you
don't want to quantify that, I'm not going to force you. But don't you
think you would have a *much* more effective argument if you actually knew
the number? Right now you are just assuming that the number is big. I
suspect you are right, but as it stands you have absolutely no idea if
you are right or wrong.

>> Anyway, if you really want to convince me, rather than just berate me,
>> try talking to me as friend, not an enemy. I assure you it will work
>> better.
> ================
> Actually, the post you replied to was addressed to katie....

True enough, but I figured I'd taken enough berating in other posts
to put it here :-)

Mike