Hey Rick. This discussion is turning out pretty long. I've snipped it
all in order to reorder things a bit. Hope that's OK. I've also changed
the subject line. We seem to be getting off topic, so I'm hoping this
will help us remember what we're talking about. Speaking of which...

Man, you really seem to be angry. I mean, I think I've treated you
with respect. I haven't suggested that you change your lifestyle
at all. But you seem intent on repeating the same things over
and over again. There's really no point. I get it. Please show
*me* some respect and before you paint me with the same brush you
do other people, at least ask me what I think. You are telling me
what vegans believe. Do *I* believe those things? How would you
know? You haven't bothered to ask me. Anyway, that's OK. I'm not
really here to stand on a soap box and tell people what I think.
I'm sure people can come up with their own conclusions. But, please
tone down the rhetoric, OK? I'm not your enemy.

Secondly, you seem to think I'm in a debate with you here. I get
the impression that I'm supposed to be the "protector of the vegan
flag", as if there was such a thing. I'm just a guy who happens
not to want to eat animals. I don't want to convince you of anything
(not that it looks like you are open to other points of view
on this topic anyway). Why would I want to waste my time like that?
No, you said I should be worried about collateral deaths of animals
in farming and I *agreed* with you. I invited you to explain how
it could be done and you accepted my invitation (or at least you
seemed to... Am I mistaken?) Anyway, if you don't feel capable of
entering into this kind of discussion where there isn't a "contest
of wills", I won't hold you to it. It just seems like you've done
a lot of research and have some interesting ideas. I don't like
wasting good opportunities.

Getting on to the point. From what you've said, I get the impression
that you don't think that there's any impediment to getting people
to switch from grain fed beef to grass fed beef. You seem to imply
that the feed lots serve very little purpose and can be dispensed with
easily. Sounds good to me. Why doesn't it happen (and this isn't an
accusation -- I just want to understand the dynamic)? Theoretically, *I*
as an individual could buy grass fed beef if I wanted to (actually, I
don't think I can -- farmers here aren't allowed to sell beef to the
public, and I found *no* grass fed beef at either the supermarket or the
butcher here... Hmmm... maybe it's where I live), but the public at large
doesn't seem to be exposed to that kind of choice. Given that at least
some places seem not to sell grass fed beef, how would you encourage the
change? Again, you've told me what won't work, please tell me what will.

WRT to deaths of rodents in fields... I'm well aware of the numbers
of rodents that live in fields (heck, there's a corn field practically
next door to me -- I see them all the time). My question (or actually,
whimsical thought) was, how many of them actually get killed. I
*know* some do (the burrowing owl is actually in serious trouble due
to lost habitat from farming). But, it was a whimsical thought. How many
lives are we "justified" in killing? Beats the hell out of me... I try
to avoid moral kunundrums like that. If possible, I'd like to reduce
the killing and create better habitat for wildlife. Sooo.... It would
be nice to have a number -- so I could at least ponder the significance
of grain farming and habitat loss and put it on my personal priority list.

Oh, just so you know, you can be self-sufficient in veggies and fruit very
easily from a home garden (especially if you employ hydroponics -- with
a decent water treatment setup of course). I don't have any papers to
show you, but I know this from experience. It takes no more than about
30 minutes a day (plus a few 3-4 hour stints once or twice a month).
The key is to harvest when you are cooking. Just pick what you're
going to eat. But like I said, grains and legumes might be a different
story. I don't know enough on this topic, which is why I'm so eager to get
other people's opinions.

Unfortunately, it's also illegal for farmers to sell grains directly to
consumers here. But, I'm not sure it would help me anyway. The farms I'd
be buying from are all big operations which presumably kill (an unknown
number of) birds and rodents. I really don't know what to do here.
Perhaps there's nothing I can do??? I'm going to try growing legumes in
my hydoponics setup, though. I'm not sure what kind of yield I can get.
It might not be enough. Plus, there are some technical hitches that I
might need to iron out (they will almost certainly need a different
nutrient makeup, which would require that I set up something specifically
for them). But, you know, I'm not sure hydroponics is for everyone --
It's not hard or labour intensive, but it can be a bit fiddly (especially
for people, like me, who don't have a reliable power source for the
pumps).

What would be nice would be a way to reduce collateral deaths in farming
in institutional farm systems. Of course there are two issues: first
to come up with a way to do it, second to convince people that it's a
good idea. I still haven't really seen anything that will help
substantially.

As you said in a previous email, it's not really diet that's important
here... It's everything else as well -- It's climate change due to
pollution from transportation. It's loss of habitat/migration routes
due to roads and natural gas pipelines. Etc, etc, etc. That's why I
think that it's less necessary to discuss what we're eating as opposed
to where we're getting it from. Local produce is *really* important.
Do you agree?

Mike

P.S. Just trying to put a name to a face... Are you the Rick Etter that
plays guitar for Jumping Conclusions?