On Aug 1, 6:41*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 8/1/2012 9:17 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> > On 1 Aug., 18:08, George Plimpton > wrote:
> >> On 8/1/2012 9:00 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>> On 1 Aug., 16:04, George Plimpton > wrote:
> >>>> On 8/1/2012 2:06 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>> On 31 Jul., 20:42, Dutch > wrote:
> >>>>>> Rupert wrote:
> >>>>>>> So what's your explanation for why he claims he doesn't think it?
>
> >>>>>> When it's laid out for him in simple terms he realizes how idiotic it
> >>>>>> sounds so he can't say he believes it.
>
> >>>>>> But then he proceeds to attack vegans, "eliminationists", for their
> >>>>>> failure to provide the opportunity for animals to experience "decent AW".
>
> >>>>>> He's not bright enough to realize that by doing so he is admitting that
> >>>>>> he implicitly believes that non-existent animals can "lose" something.
>
> >>>>> It's one thing to claim he's being inconsistent; that's different from
> >>>>> claiming that he's lying about what he thinks.
>
> >>>> Let's look at two of his lies about what he thinks and believes. *The
> >>>> first is his claim that he doesn't believe that unborn farm animals,
> >>>> which he expects and wants to be born, will suffer a "loss" if something
> >>>> prevents their conception and birth. *When it became apparent to me, in
> >>>> the summer of 1999, that ****wit believes there *would* be some kind of
> >>>> moral loss if the farm animals he wants to exist were prevented from
> >>>> being conceived and born, I began asking him to describe the loss, and
> >>>> to identify who or what would experience it. *I was after him for over
> >>>> nine months to answer the question of who or what experiences the loss.
> >>>> * * I asked him literally dozens of times, even offering possible answers
> >>>> to him, one of which was the unborn animals. *Finally, in August 2000,
> >>>> some nine months later, he provided his classic example of ****wittery:
>
> >>>> * * * * * Yes, it is the unborn animals that will be
> >>>> * * * * * born if nothing prevents that from happening,
> >>>> * * * * * that would experience the loss if their lives
> >>>> * * * * * are prevented.
> >>>> * * * * * ****wit - 08/01/2000
>
> >>>> When I pointed out the belief is absurd, and he began to be mocked for
> >>>> it, he immediately began furiously backpedaling from it. *But why
> >>>> wouldn't you think his answer would be honest, when he had had months to
> >>>> conceive of the answer? *And what about all his other statements that
> >>>> support the conclusion that he *does* believe unborn animals *do* exist,
> >>>> or "pre-exist", in some sense? *For example:
>
> >>>> * * * * * What gives you the right to want to deprive
> >>>> * * * * * them [unborn animals] of having what life they
> >>>> * * * * * could have?
> >>>> * * * * * ****wit - 10/12/2001
>
> >>>> * * * * * What I'm saying is unfair for the animals that
> >>>> * * * * * *could* get to live, is for people not to
> >>>> * * * * * consider the fact that they are only keeping
> >>>> * * * * * these animals from being killed, by keeping
> >>>> * * * * * them from getting to live at all.
> >>>> * * * * * ****wit - 10/19/1999
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> >>>> * * * * * If you keep an animal from being born which
> >>>> * * * * * would have been born without your interference,
> >>>> * * * * * you have denied life to it, whether it actually
> >>>> * * * * * exists or not.
> >>>> * * * * * ****wit - 28 Sept 1999http://tinyurl.com/2x3ogu
>
> >>>> * * * * * If it is wrong to cut their lives short, it is
> >>>> * * * * * even more wrong to discourage them from ever
> >>>> * * * * * getting to experience life at all IMO.
> >>>> * * * * * ****wit - 9 Nov 1999http://tinyurl.com/38bd9v
>
> >>>> It is obvious, even to a dull mentally ill plodder like you, that
> >>>> ****wit assigns some kind of moral weight to the interests of animals
> >>>> that haven't been conceived. *How *else* could he do so if he doesn't
> >>>> think they exist in some weird sense? *How *else* could he say that
> >>>> something could be "denied" or "unfair" to unconceived animals? *It is
> >>>> obvious, from the totality of the things he has written, that ****wit
> >>>> thinks unconceived farm animals exist "in some sense", which is the only
> >>>> way he can assign any moral weight to their "getting to experience life"
> >>>> before they are actually alive. *Of course, it's always possible that he
> >>>> isn't assigning any moral weight to it at all, and is instead throwing
> >>>> that bullshit out there as a smokescreen for *his* interest in seeing
> >>>> the animals exist so that he may eat them, but that only means we've
> >>>> caught him in a different lie.
>
> >>>> So, that takes care of lie #1: *if we are to take him at his word that
> >>>> it really is the interests of unconceived farm animals he is trying to
> >>>> protect, then he *necessarily* believes they will experience some "loss"
> >>>> if something prevents them from being conceived and born and "getting to
> >>>> experience life, and he is lying when he says he doesn't believe it. *He
> >>>> only says he doesn't believe it because the expression of the belief
> >>>> sounds absurd on its face, and he can't defend it.
>
> >>>> Now, for lie #2, specifically his statement that he considers the
> >>>> unconceived farm animals to be "nothing". *We can see that that's a lie
> >>>> first by the totality of all the other things he's written about
> >>>> unconceived farm animals being "denied" and "deprived" of life and
> >>>> experiencing "unfairness". *All of those statements demonstrate that he
> >>>> considers "them" to be "something", specifically "something" that can
> >>>> experience denial, deprivation, unfairness - and loss. *This is obvious
> >>>> and beyond dispute.
>
> >>>> The second way we see that he is lying about the unconceived animals
> >>>> being "nothing" is that it was said in a blatantly obvious effort to
> >>>> distance himself from the most absurd comment he had made, the one for
> >>>> which he was being mocked and ridiculed - the one which is entirely
> >>>> consistent with all the *other* things he said that prove he thinks the
> >>>> unconceived animals are "something".
>
> >>>> Finally, the third way we know he's lying about it is that he
> >>>> *explicitly* said they are "more than just 'nothing'" in an earlier
> >>>> unguarded moment in which he wasn't on the hot seat to try to defend, or
> >>>> run away from, an idiotic statement of belief:
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> >>>> * * * * * The animals that will be raised for us to eat
> >>>> * * * * * are more than just "nothing", because they
> >>>> * * * * * *will* be born unless something stops their
> >>>> * * * * * lives from happening. Since that is the case,
> >>>> * * * * * if something stops their lives from happening,
> >>>> * * * * * whatever it is that stops it is truly "denying"
> >>>> * * * * * them of the life they otherwise would have had.
> >>>> * * * * * ****wit - 12/09/1999
>
> >>>> ****wit has simply made too many statements, both direct and indirect,
> >>>> that demonstrate his belief that unconceived farm animals are morally
> >>>> considerable "somethings", for you reasonably to think he doesn't
> >>>> believe it. *You *know* he believes it. *The only reason you wish to
> >>>> pretend you don't know it is your own wholly irrational hatred of me,
> >>>> such that if I say something that is obviously and demonstrably true,
> >>>> you irrationally react as if you think it isn't true. *That, Woopert, is
> >>>> evidence of your psychosis.
>
> >>> The quotations you provide from Harrison are all from a long time ago..
>
> >> He has expressed the same beliefs in other posts since then.
>
> > Well, he's being inconsistent then, isn't he?
>
> No.

Really? He says things that contradict one another but he's not being
inconsistent?

> *His statements of belief are obvious, and so are his lies. *Any
> reasonable person can tell them apart.
>

How?

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> >>> If he began "backpedalling" from the belief when you started providing
> >>> arguments against it, then it seems to me that one reasonable
> >>> interpretation of this development is simply that he was persuaded by
> >>> your arguments.
>
> >> He wasn't. *His backpedaling was tactical, simply to avoid the ridicule
> >> resulting from his oafish expression of his deeply held beliefs. *He
> >> wasn't backing away from the beliefs themselves; he continued to express
> >> the same ones worded differently.
>
> >> ****wit *still* believes that the "getting to experience life" is
> >> important - *morally* important - to the animals themselves, even before
> >> they are conceived and born and exist as rational people think of
> >> existence. *The *only* way he can believe that is if he believes they
> >> "pre-exist in some sense." *He does believe that. *He is an idiot.
>
> > Well, you certainly seem to be convinced.
>
> I'm right.
>

So you would appear to believe.

> >>> I don't hate you
>
> >> Ha ha ha ha ha ha! *Yes, you do, Woopert. *It's irrational, but that's
> >> consistent for you.
>
> > Why do you think I hate you?
>
> Irrationality.

No, I was asking you what led you to the conclusion that I hate you.