"Speciesism" - nothing wrong with it
On Apr 18, 1:31*am, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/17/2012 1:34 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> > On Apr 17, 9:25 pm, George > *wrote:
> >> On 4/17/2012 11:10 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>> On Apr 17, 4:01 pm, George > * *wrote:
> >>>> On 4/16/2012 11:47 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>> On Apr 16, 8:53 pm, George > * * *wrote:
> >>>>>> On 4/16/2012 11:13 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>> On Apr 16, 4:46 pm, George > * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 4/15/2012 11:17 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 6:37 am, George > * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 4/15/2012 8:44 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 5:37 am, George > * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/15/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 4:58 am, George > * * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/15/2012 6:32 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2:13 am, George > * * * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/12/2012 3:08 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 12, 6:47 pm, George > * * * * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/12/2012 8:56 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 12, 7:11 am, George > * * * * * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/11/2012 8:53 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 12, 12:23 am, > * * * * * * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > * * * * * * * * * * *wrote
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most ethicists would agree that equal consideration of interests is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the default starting position.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For whom? My default starting position for consideration is my own
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interests, followed by my immediate family including my pets, my community,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my country, mankind, higher level animals, rare plant species, lower level
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, the planet, and the economy is implied in there somewhere.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The default starting position for every organism in existence is its own
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interests, that is the way the world works.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is something that requires defence from the moral point of view.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why?
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because the interests of other organisms are equally important from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the moral point of view,
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's the assertion you must prove, but have to date not even attempted
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to prove.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The burden of proof is on someone who says that the interests of a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> particular class of organisms deserve special consideration.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The burden of proof is on you limp challengers.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, it just degenerates into an exchange of contrary assertions
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about who has the burden of proof
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have claimed not only that the burden of proof in terms of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> justifying "speciesism" is on those who rely on it,
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I have claimed that, and I have also claimed that most ethicists
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> agree on this point,
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> >>>>>>>>>>>> You're full of shit on that point.
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> >>>>>>>>>>> Well, my friend who is doing a PhD in metaethics doesn't think so,
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> >>>>>>>>>> Your "ara" radical pal is a lying partisan.
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> >>>>>>>>> I'm not talking about John Hadley. It's another guy, and he's not an
> >>>>>>>>> ARA.
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> >>>>>>>> He's still a radical lying partisan. *You're trying to appeal to
> >>>>>>>> authority, when the credentials of the so-called authority are not
> >>>>>>>> established.
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> >>>>>>> He is someone who is doing a PhD in metaethics, and he is not an ARA.
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> >>>>>> That's nice. *I still don't see that he would be qualified to say that
> >>>>>> the "default position" of ethics is that equal consideration ought to be
> >>>>>> given to entities' interests irrespective of species. *That's a
> >>>>>> *normative* ethical prescription.
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> >>>>> Quite, but in the course of doing a PhD in metaethics one becomes
> >>>>> quite knowledgeable about normative ethics as well. The different
> >>>>> areas of moral philosophy are linked.
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> >>>>>> It also is a highly controversial one, disputed by many people in the
> >>>>>> field of ethics and elsewhere.
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> >>>>> Yes, you're right that it is highly controversial, and I never
> >>>>> suggested otherwise, but he confirmed my belief that the majority
> >>>>> opinion of ethicists is that different amounts of consideration based
> >>>>> on species is something that needs to be justified, the burden of
> >>>>> proof is on the speciesist.
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> >>>>>>> It is reasonable to suppose that he would be better-informed about the
> >>>>>>> matter than you.
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> >>>>>> Meta-ethics is not normative ethics.
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> >>>>> I know that. My remark still stands.
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> >> Your remark is bullshit.
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> > Actually, it's the obvious truth.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You keep piling up
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the burdens of proof that you then shirk.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you want me to try to prove?
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> >>>>>>>>>>>> All of it.
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> >>>>>>>>>>> All of what?
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> >>>>>>>>>> All of your claims.
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> >>>>>>>>> Can you name a claim I've made that I haven't proved?
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> >>>>>>>> Yes: *that equal consideration is due animals' interests.
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> >>>>>>> Okay. So you believe all human interests are entitled to equal
> >>>>>>> consideration, yes? Or no?
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> >>>>>> No - and neither do you.
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> >>>>> What do you believe about humans, then?
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> >>>> That we all establish hierarchies or circles.
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> >>> So you don't believe in any notion of human equality?
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> >> On every possible dimension? *No, of course not - and neither do you..
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> > I don't know what you mean by "on every possible dimension".
>
> Yes, you do.
You are a foolish person.
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