"Speciesism" - a disgusting neologism, a specious criticim
On Apr 16, 4:47*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/15/2012 11:18 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> > On Apr 16, 6:37 am, George > *wrote:
> >> On 4/15/2012 8:50 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>> On Apr 16, 5:37 am, George > * *wrote:
> >>>> On 4/15/2012 8:15 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>> On Apr 16, 5:02 am, George > * * *wrote:
> >>>>>> On 4/15/2012 6:41 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>> On Apr 16, 3:32 am, George > * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 4/15/2012 6:30 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2:11 am, George > * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 4/12/2012 3:05 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 12, 6:42 pm, George > * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/12/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 12, 6:04 am, George > * * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/11/2012 10:44 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 11, 7:15 pm, wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The very word itself, if we can hold our noses and call it a word, is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disgusting. *Most spell-checkers reject it as a properly spelled English
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> word. *It's a revolting neologism, coined by sophists.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One of the most obvious defects in the "ar" criticism of so-called
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "speciesism" is that it rather than say what is substantially wrong
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with, "ar" passivists instead commit a logical fallacy, what might be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> called the Guilt by Association or "Bad Company" fallacy.. *At the very
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> outset of any "ar" condemnation of "speciesism", there is an immediate
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt to link it with racism and sexism, as if that's all that's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed to show that "speciesism" not only is morally wrong but deeply
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evil. *In fact, the very word itself, with its "ism" suffix, is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deliberately - I would say cynically - intended to suggest this linkage.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * There is no escaping the fact that this is a fallacy. *If someone is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to say that "speciesism" is wrong, he's going to have to say why
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is wrong in its substance.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The comparison, however, is wrong in *its* substance. *Not only is it a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> logical fallacy to condemn "speciesism" simply by comparing it to racism
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and sexism, but the comparison is false; it doesn't stand up to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scrutiny. *First of all, putting aside any concern about "marginal
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cases", there *is* a general morally significant difference between
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> humans and all other species, a difference that is wholly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> species-dependent. *Humans are moral agents; no other animal species
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contains any moral agents. *That is a morally significant difference -
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so much so, that "ar" passivists say humans are *obliged* to alter their
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> view of animals as a result of it. *In other words, "ar" passivists are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves "speciesist" in condemning "speciesism". *The failure of race
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be a morally significant separator is too obvious to require much
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comment. *Whatever moral attribute people might want to use as a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> criterion for discrimination, race does not logically include or exclude
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an individual. *If admission to prestigious universities is to be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> granted based on high grades and high standardized test scores, then
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is no valid reason to exclude someone of any given race if he has
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sufficiently high scores. *We don't need to invoke "marginal cases" to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see what's wrong with using race or sex as a discriminating criterion:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some, or perhaps even many, members of historically disadvantaged human
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> groups meet the objective criteria for inclusion.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second way in which the comparison fails is that racial minorities
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and women are able to advance their own claims that they possess the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traits that are supposed to be the criteria for inclusion. *In fact, the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very act of making their own claim is part of the demonstration that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they *do* possess those relevant traits. *Other species' members cannot
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do this - *none* of them.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For these reasons, "speciesism" fails as a criticism of the human use of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you think that moral agency is the crucial morally relevant factor,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then extend the same amount of consideration to all moral patients,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> human or nonhuman.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You've given no valid reason why we should.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You've given no valid reason not to, and it's your job to do that.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> No, it isn't. *You're proposing a massive change - it's your burden to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> prove that we ought to make it.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>> The burden is on you and the other radicals, and predictably - because
> >>>>>>>>>>>> you're do-nothing passivists - you're shirking your burden.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> My proposal above simply amounts to taking your suggestion that moral
> >>>>>>>>>>> agency is the crucial factor seriously.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> As it is an attribute that only attaches to one species, it's "speciesism".
>
> >>>>>>>>> You don't know that it only attaches to one species
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> >>>>>>>> We all know that it does.
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> >>>>>>> No.
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> >>>>>> Yes.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not speciesism.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's incoherent, is what it is.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Why?
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> >>>>>>>>>>>> Already explained.
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> >>>>>>>>>>> No.
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> >>>>>>>>>> Yes - explained.
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> >>>>>>>>> I am not aware
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> >>>>>>>> Liar.
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> >>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that I am a liar.
>
> >>>>>> Of course I have.
>
> >>>>> No, you don't. Actually, you have quite rational grounds for thinking
> >>>>> that I am telling the truth. Because I am saying that I am not aware
> >>>>> of you having explained why it is incoherent to extend the same amount
> >>>>> of moral consideration to all moral patients, human or nonhuman. And
> >>>>> you have in fact never made any attempt to explain this, so it is
> >>>>> quite reasonable to suppose that I would not be aware of your having
> >>>>> done so. So it is quite rational for you to believe that I am telling
> >>>>> the truth, and not lying.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other species don't give any consideration to the interests of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> individual members of different species.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes they do but that is irrelevant.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> They never give the sort of consideration you say humans must give, and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> it's entirely relevant. *It's what shows that you are being "speciesist"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> yourself.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Nonhuman animals can't give the same sort of consideration that humans
> >>>>>>>>>>> give, and it's not speciesist to refuse to ask them to do something
> >>>>>>>>>>> beyond their cognitive capacities.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> It *is* "speciesist" - you keep forgetting the quotes, asshole - to
> >>>>>>>>>> demand they do something based on a species-dependent trait.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Saying that we *must*, due to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> some intrinsic feature of our species, is "speciesist" (always put
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quotes around "speciesism" and "speciesist" to indicate they're bullshit
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> made-up pseudo-words.)
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's not. It's not speciesist to say that moral agents have moral
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> obligations.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> It's "speciesist" - you forgot the quotes, you **** - to say that humans
> >>>>>>>>>>>> are obliged to behave in a particular way based on a species-dependent
> >>>>>>>>>>>> attribute.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> That's not what is being said.
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> >>>>>>>>>> That *is* what is being said.
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> >>>>>>>>> Obviously only moral agents can have moral obligations.
>
> >>>>>>>> Not what you're saying.
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> >>>>>>> Yes. It is precisely what I am saying.
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> >>>>>> No, it is not.
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> >>>>> Actually, it is.
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> >>>> It isn't.
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> >>>>> I am the one who gets to decide what I am saying.
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> >>>> I get to interpret what you're really saying. *I'm right.
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> >>> No, you don't get to interpret what I'm saying.
>
> >> I do. *I really do.
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> > You do get to make up stories about what I'm saying if
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> That's not what I'm doing.
Where do the stories come from, then?
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