"Speciesism" - a disgusting neologism, a specious criticim
On 4/15/2012 11:18 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 16, 6:37 am, George > wrote:
>> On 4/15/2012 8:50 PM, Rupert wrote:
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>>> On Apr 16, 5:37 am, George > wrote:
>>>> On 4/15/2012 8:15 PM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>> On Apr 16, 5:02 am, George > wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/15/2012 6:41 PM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 3:32 am, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/15/2012 6:30 PM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2:11 am, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/12/2012 3:05 PM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 12, 6:42 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/12/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 12, 6:04 am, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/11/2012 10:44 AM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 11, 7:15 pm, wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The very word itself, if we can hold our noses and call it a word, is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disgusting. Most spell-checkers reject it as a properly spelled English
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> word. It's a revolting neologism, coined by sophists.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One of the most obvious defects in the "ar" criticism of so-called
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "speciesism" is that it rather than say what is substantially wrong
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with, "ar" passivists instead commit a logical fallacy, what might be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> called the Guilt by Association or "Bad Company" fallacy. At the very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> outset of any "ar" condemnation of "speciesism", there is an immediate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt to link it with racism and sexism, as if that's all that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed to show that "speciesism" not only is morally wrong but deeply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evil. In fact, the very word itself, with its "ism" suffix, is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deliberately - I would say cynically - intended to suggest this linkage.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no escaping the fact that this is a fallacy. If someone is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to say that "speciesism" is wrong, he's going to have to say why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is wrong in its substance.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The comparison, however, is wrong in *its* substance. Not only is it a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> logical fallacy to condemn "speciesism" simply by comparing it to racism
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and sexism, but the comparison is false; it doesn't stand up to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scrutiny. First of all, putting aside any concern about "marginal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cases", there *is* a general morally significant difference between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> humans and all other species, a difference that is wholly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> species-dependent. Humans are moral agents; no other animal species
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contains any moral agents. That is a morally significant difference -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so much so, that "ar" passivists say humans are *obliged* to alter their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> view of animals as a result of it. In other words, "ar" passivists are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves "speciesist" in condemning "speciesism". The failure of race
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be a morally significant separator is too obvious to require much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comment. Whatever moral attribute people might want to use as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> criterion for discrimination, race does not logically include or exclude
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an individual. If admission to prestigious universities is to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> granted based on high grades and high standardized test scores, then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is no valid reason to exclude someone of any given race if he has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sufficiently high scores. We don't need to invoke "marginal cases" to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see what's wrong with using race or sex as a discriminating criterion:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some, or perhaps even many, members of historically disadvantaged human
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> groups meet the objective criteria for inclusion.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second way in which the comparison fails is that racial minorities
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and women are able to advance their own claims that they possess the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traits that are supposed to be the criteria for inclusion. In fact, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very act of making their own claim is part of the demonstration that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they *do* possess those relevant traits. Other species' members cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do this - *none* of them.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For these reasons, "speciesism" fails as a criticism of the human use of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you think that moral agency is the crucial morally relevant factor,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then extend the same amount of consideration to all moral patients,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> human or nonhuman.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You've given no valid reason why we should.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You've given no valid reason not to, and it's your job to do that.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it isn't. You're proposing a massive change - it's your burden to
>>>>>>>>>>>> prove that we ought to make it.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The burden is on you and the other radicals, and predictably - because
>>>>>>>>>>>> you're do-nothing passivists - you're shirking your burden.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My proposal above simply amounts to taking your suggestion that moral
>>>>>>>>>>> agency is the crucial factor seriously.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> As it is an attribute that only attaches to one species, it's "speciesism".
>>
>>>>>>>>> You don't know that it only attaches to one species
>>
>>>>>>>> We all know that it does.
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>>>>>>> No.
>>
>>>>>> Yes.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not speciesism.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's incoherent, is what it is.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why?
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Already explained.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes - explained.
>>
>>>>>>>>> I am not aware
>>
>>>>>>>> Liar.
>>
>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that I am a liar.
>>
>>>>>> Of course I have.
>>
>>>>> No, you don't. Actually, you have quite rational grounds for thinking
>>>>> that I am telling the truth. Because I am saying that I am not aware
>>>>> of you having explained why it is incoherent to extend the same amount
>>>>> of moral consideration to all moral patients, human or nonhuman. And
>>>>> you have in fact never made any attempt to explain this, so it is
>>>>> quite reasonable to suppose that I would not be aware of your having
>>>>> done so. So it is quite rational for you to believe that I am telling
>>>>> the truth, and not lying.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other species don't give any consideration to the interests of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individual members of different species.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes they do but that is irrelevant.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> They never give the sort of consideration you say humans must give, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> it's entirely relevant. It's what shows that you are being "speciesist"
>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Nonhuman animals can't give the same sort of consideration that humans
>>>>>>>>>>> give, and it's not speciesist to refuse to ask them to do something
>>>>>>>>>>> beyond their cognitive capacities.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> It *is* "speciesist" - you keep forgetting the quotes, asshole - to
>>>>>>>>>> demand they do something based on a species-dependent trait.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Saying that we *must*, due to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some intrinsic feature of our species, is "speciesist" (always put
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quotes around "speciesism" and "speciesist" to indicate they're bullshit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made-up pseudo-words.)
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's not. It's not speciesist to say that moral agents have moral
>>>>>>>>>>>>> obligations.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's "speciesist" - you forgot the quotes, you **** - to say that humans
>>>>>>>>>>>> are obliged to behave in a particular way based on a species-dependent
>>>>>>>>>>>> attribute.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That's not what is being said.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> That *is* what is being said.
>>
>>>>>>>>> Obviously only moral agents can have moral obligations.
>>
>>>>>>>> Not what you're saying.
>>
>>>>>>> Yes. It is precisely what I am saying.
>>
>>>>>> No, it is not.
>>
>>>>> Actually, it is.
>>
>>>> It isn't.
>>
>>>>> I am the one who gets to decide what I am saying.
>>
>>>> I get to interpret what you're really saying. I'm right.
>>
>>> No, you don't get to interpret what I'm saying.
>>
>> I do. I really do.
>
> You do get to make up stories about what I'm saying if
That's not what I'm doing.
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