"vegan" arrogance and egotism
On Mar 24, 8:18*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 3/24/2012 6:24 AM, Rupert wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 23, 11:19 pm, George > *wrote:
> >> On 3/23/2012 1:42 PM, Rupert wrote:
>
> >>> On Mar 23, 8:31 pm, George > * *wrote:
> >>>> On 3/23/2012 10:44 AM, George Plimpton wrote:
>
> >>>>> On 3/23/2012 10:20 AM, Derek wrote:
> >>>>>> On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 08:56:09 -0700, George >
> >>>>>> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> On 3/23/2012 8:46 AM, Rupert wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 4:00 pm, George > * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 3/23/2012 12:03 AM, Rupert wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 7:52 am, George > * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2012 11:31 PM, Rupert wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 7:25 am, George > * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2012 11:04 PM, Rupert wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 6:55 am, George > * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2012 10:27 PM, Rupert wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2:33 am, George > * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A typical "vegan" tries to argue "Why vegans are simply
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better people."http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=226259
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All "vegans" believe that. Woopert is lying when he says he
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you suppose would motivate me to lie about it?
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because you know that bragging that your character is better
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of others, particularly on such an inflammatory and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contentious topic as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not putting animal parts in your mouth, is going to generate
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a lot of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well-founded criticism, and you don't want to have to defend
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> against the charge of placing yourself on a moral pedestal,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so you just
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lie. But you *do* think you're "simply better" than those who
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal products.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You say that I am aware that the critcism would be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "well-founded".
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> No, I say it is well-founded, and it would be, because bragging
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> being better, even if an objective case can be made that one is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> better,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is still disparaged.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't matter if you know it would be well-founded or not.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You *do*
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> know that the criticism would ensue, so to avoid it you lie and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> claim
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> not to believe what you obviously *do* believe.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If I know that the criticism would be well-founded, wouldn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this lead
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> me to critically re-examine the belief?
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The criticism would be for the bragging, you stupid ****wit..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You know this.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The simple fact is, you do believe you're "better" than meat
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> eaters
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> based on what you don't put in your mouth.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't really think, in general, it is meaningful to say that one
> >>>>>>>>>>>> person is "better" than another. I'm with the followers of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> school
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of Rational Emotive Behavioural Therapy on this one. You can't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> meaningfully compare two different people.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> That's bullshit. If I focus on one wrong behavior at a time - say,
> >>>>>>>>>>> robbing liquor stores - and you commit the crime and I don't,
> >>>>>>>>>>> then I am
> >>>>>>>>>>> better than you in that one dimension - not in doubt.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Well, your behaviour is morally better in that dimension, yes, and I
> >>>>>>>>>> never denied that. I've always agreed that I believe that, other
> >>>>>>>>>> things equal, making some effort to reduce the amount of suffering
> >>>>>>>>>> required to produce your food is morally better than not doing so.
>
> >>>>>>>>> The problem is *all* you have left is a shaky, ill-founded belief that
> >>>>>>>>> you're "making an effort" merely by not putting animal parts in your
> >>>>>>>>> mouth. All the piercing criticisms elaborated in the "vegan shuffle"
> >>>>>>>>> argument continue to hold. You aren't "minimizing" and you aren't
> >>>>>>>>> "doing the best you can" in regard to reducing suffering merely by not
> >>>>>>>>> putting animal parts in your mouth. You just can't conclude you're
> >>>>>>>>> doing anything meaningful by *not* consuming animal parts, relative to
> >>>>>>>>> someone who does. Your beliefs about what the consumption of animal
> >>>>>>>>> parts mean with regard to the *amount* of suffering one causes are
> >>>>>>>>> false.
>
> >>>>>>>> What reasons do you have for thinking they are false?
>
> >>>>>>> We've been through that countless times, you time-wasting shitbag.. The
> >>>>>>> belief that one is making a meaningful reduction in animal suffering
> >>>>>>> merely by *not* putting animal parts in one's mouth has been
> >>>>>>> demonstrated to be illogical and false.
>
> >>>>>> Then, to paraphrase, "The belief that one is making a meaningful
> >>>>>> reduction in [pollution] merely by *not* putting [garbage] in one's
> >>>>>> [garbage bin] has been demonstrated to be illogical and false."
>
> >>>>> I never claimed that recycling necessarily reduces pollution. What it
> >>>>> does, unquestionably, is change the destination of the waste. If you
> >>>>> consider putting waste into a landfill (rubbish tip where you live) a
> >>>>> form of pollution, then necessarily recycling reduces that kind of
> >>>>> pollution. Now, I can't say with assurance that it reduces total
> >>>>> pollution, because when the materials are reprocessed, that certainly
> >>>>> creates more industrial pollution. Whether or not the pollution caused
> >>>>> by reprocessing the recyclables is less than, the same as or greater
> >>>>> than the pollution caused by processing virgin raw materials to make
> >>>>> stuff, I can't say. Intuitively, I think it's probably less, but I don't
> >>>>> know.
>
> >>>>>> I know you're a keen on recycling what you can. Are you going to stop
> >>>>>> recycling now? Do you think that maybe your neighbours believe you
> >>>>>> think you're better than them because you recycle?
>
> >>>>> In terms of my own beliefs, I believe I *am* better for keeping material
> >>>>> out of landfills.
>
> >>>> There's another difference that makes your comparison not quite right.
|