On Mar 23, 7:55*am, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 3/22/2012 11:47 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> > On Mar 23, 7:25 am, George > *wrote:
> >> On 3/22/2012 11:04 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>> On Mar 23, 6:55 am, George > * *wrote:
> >>>> On 3/22/2012 10:27 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>> On Mar 23, 2:33 am, George > * * *wrote:
> >>>>>> A typical "vegan" tries to argue "Why vegans are simply better people."http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=226259
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> >>>>>> All "vegans" believe that. *Woopert is lying when he says he doesn't.
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> >>>>> What do you suppose would motivate me to lie about it?
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> >>>> Because you know that bragging that your character is better than that
> >>>> of others, particularly on such an inflammatory and contentious topic as
> >>>> not putting animal parts in your mouth, is going to generate a lot of
> >>>> well-founded criticism, and you don't want to have to defend yourself
> >>>> against the charge of placing yourself on a moral pedestal, so you just
> >>>> lie. *But you *do* think you're "simply better" than those who use
> >>>> animal products.
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> >>> You say that I am aware that the critcism would be "well-founded".
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> >> No, I say it is well-founded, and it would be, because bragging about
> >> being better, even if an objective case can be made that one is better,
> >> is still disparaged.
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> >> It doesn't matter if you know it would be well-founded or not. *You *do*
> >> know that the criticism would ensue, so to avoid it you lie and claim
> >> not to believe what you obviously *do* believe.
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> >>> If I know that the criticism would be well-founded, wouldn't this lead
> >>> me to critically re-examine the belief?
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> >> The criticism would be for the bragging, you stupid ****wit. *You know this.
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> >> The simple fact is, you do believe you're "better" than meat eaters
> >> based on what you don't put in your mouth.
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> > You obviously want to believe that what's in it for me to be a vegan
> > is to be able to view myself as a "better" person, as opposed to
> > trying to do something about animal suffering.
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> It has been shown that you can't conclude anything meaningful about the
> amount of animal suffering you cause*, yet you continue to remain
> "vegan" and you think it is *good* to do that. *As there is no objective
> moral gain from it, the only thing left is a personal gain to you in
> your self-esteem. *You think you're "better" than meat eaters.
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> * you aren't living "cruelty free", you're not "minimizing", you're not
> "doing the best you can".

I can conclude something meaningful about the amount of animal
suffering required to produce my food. Specifically, I can conclude
that I've become acquainted with information about how animals are
treated on modern farms and on that basis have decided to go vegan in
an effort to reduce the amount of suffering required to produce my
food, and it's reasonable to believe that I succeeded in that goal.
Furthermore, I've made some effort to investigate whether there are
any other practical steps I could take to further reduce the amount of
suffering required to produce my food, short of extreme measures like
quitting my job, and I'm not aware of any such practical steps I could
take. On the whole I think it's pretty reasonable to say that I am
"doing the best I can", or perhaps "making every reasonable effort".

Of course I continue to remain vegan, because I think that is a good
strategy for reducing the amount of suffering required to produce my
food. And, yes, I do think that it is good to take some steps to try
to reduce the amount of suffering required to produce your food. There
is an objective moral gain, specifically, less suffering is required
in order to produce the food. And when I take the step of changing my
diet in this way the expected amount of suffering that actually takes
place is reduced. That's the goal, to reduce the amount of suffering
that takes place. That's the gain. What it does for my self-esteem is
irrelevant. I do not think I am "better" than meat-eaters. I do not
spend my time thinking that I am "better" than this person or that
person. I simply don't think like that. You do, you have explicitly
said that you are "better" than me and you obviously get something out
of thinking that. But I don't think like that. For me, the question of
whether it makes me a better person is completely irrelevant. What I
am interested in is the effect it will have on the amount of suffering
that takes place.