On Mar 9, 8:03*am, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 3/8/2012 10:38 PM, Rupert wrote:
>
> > On Mar 8, 10:40 pm, George > *wrote:
> >> “Veganism” *is* bullshit. Here’s why. It claims to be an ethical
> >> response to an ethical problem, but 1) there is no agreement that there
> >> is an ethical problem in the human use of animals per se, and 2) the
> >> response is ethically empty.
>
> > People who are confronted with the facts about what actually happens
> > to animals who are used for human ends generally do agree that there
> > is a fairly serious ethical problem with it.
>
> There is no inherent ethical problem concerning the human use of animals
> per se.
>

So you claim. That is a matter which is disputed by reasonable people.
In any event it looks as though you don't wish to contradict the
statement that I made.

> >> All “vegans” start by committing a logical fallacy, the fallacy of
> >> denying the antecedent:
>
> >> * * * *If I consume animal parts, I cause the suffering and death of animals.
>
> >> * * * *I do not consume any animal parts;
>
> >> * * * *therefore, I do not cause the suffering and death of animals.
>
> > That's not true.
>
> It is true.
>

How do you know?

>
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>
> >> The conclusion is wrong because consuming animal parts is not the only
> >> way in which animals are caused to suffer and die. Crop agriculture
> >> kills and maims uncounted millions of wild animals of the field –
> >> usually not as large as the largest livestock, but millions of bird,
> >> reptiles, amphibians, and small mammals; even animals as large as deer
> >> are routinely killed by crop machinery. So, the conclusion is false.
>
> >> All “vegans” also begin by saying they live a “cruelty free
> >> ‘lifestyle’”, but this is also bullshit, due to the fact of animal
> >> collateral deaths elaborated above. Most “vegans” retreat from that
> >> position to the weaker claim that they at least “minimize” animal
> >> suffering and death, but that is also bullshit. To minimize, they must
> >> count, and no one does that. It is conceivable to follow a
> >> meat-including diet that actually causes less harm to animals than the
> >> typical “vegan” diet, but even if one looks only at “vegan” diets, it is
> >> obvious that some food crops cause less harm than others; unless a
> >> “vegan” excludes everything but the least-harm vegetables from his diet,
> >> he cannot be said to be minimizing the harm he causes.
>
> > But it is not possible at present to get reliable information about
> > the different amounts of harm caused by the different food crops,
>
> Irrelevant. *If the data aren't there, no claim about "minimizing can
> validly be made.
>

You can make a claim that you are doing the best you can, given the
limited information available and limited resources you have to gather
further information, to follow a diet that minimises the expected
contribution to suffering and premature death, relative to your
epistemic situation, given that you don't wish to make extreme
sacrifices like quitting your job and growing all your own food.
That's what I believe I'm doing. If you don't agree, the only reason I
would be interested is if you can actually offer constructive
suggestions for how I could be doing better.

> "vegans" make no effort to obtain that information.
>

Some do, some don't. Those that try to do it generally find that no
reliable information is available at the moment.

> >> The next retreat is to the claim of “doing the best I can,” but again
> >> that is bullshit, for the same reason: unless one has undertaken to
> >> measure the harm, it is unlikely one is doing the best one can; there
> >> must be *some* change, say less rice and more soybeans, that would yield
> >> an improvement.
>
> > There might be some changes that would yield an improvement in my diet
> > but there is no reason to think that it is within my power to find out
> > what they are unless I quit my job and take up full-time research into
> > the problem.
>
> That's a lie. *You could do *something* to try to learn about lower CD
> vegetables, but you do nothing, and you use this bullshit about "I'd
> have to quit my job" as a catch-all excuse.
>

I do do something. I use Google to try to find studies that have been
done on the matter and talk about the issues on discussion forums with
other people who are interested in the question of trying to reduce
suffering.

You don't have any idea of what I do or do not do. Why do you suppose
you do?

> >> In the end, the “vegan” has to retreat to the nastiest, vilest position
> >> of all: “I’m doing better than you meat eaters.” That makes virtue into
> >> a comparison with others,
>
> > Why?
>
> What does "I'm doing better than you meat eaters" mean, idiot?
>

Exactly what it says. Note that no reference to virtue is made.

> > Vegans *do* generally do better than most meat eaters from the point
> > of view of reducing harm.
>
> Not proved, but that's not the point. *Declaring oneself virtuous
> *solely* because one is allegedly doing less of something wrong than
> others is itself immoral.
>

But that is not what was in question here. Making an assertion about a
nonmoral fact (or an alleged nonmoral fact if you prefer to call it
that), is not making any claim to be virtuous.

I am also not especially convinced that declaring oneself to be
virtuous solely because one is allegedly doing less of something wrong
than others is immoral, I just think it's incorrect. But the point is
moot, because you have offered no good evidence that anyone is doing
that.

> Just because you sodomize the 8-year-old child next door "only" three
> times a week while your brother sodomizes the child 10 times doesn't
> mean you're virtuous. *The only way you can be virtuous with respect to
> that is not to sodomize the boy ever.
>

Quite. So that establishes that making the claim is incorrect. I don't
believe anyone's ever argued with you there.

> >> and that is morally repugnant.
>
> > It's not really all that morally repugnant, just incorrect.
>
> It is repugnant to any right-thinking person.
>

Do you have any arguments to offer for this point of view?

>
>
> >> It also isn’t
> >> true, and it also yields perverse results. The claim is morally
> >> repugnant because virtue never consists in comparing one's behavior with
> >> others; it consists solely in doing what is right.
>
> > That is true.
>
> But "vegans" violate it. *They declare themselves virtuous because they
> believe they do less of something wrong, when the only correct amount of
> something that is flatly wrong is zero.
>

Do you have the least shred of evidence that vegans declare themselves
to be virtuous?

> >> It isn’t true
> >> because it is possible, as I said, to follow a meat-including diet that
> >> is lower harm than the typical “vegan” diet.
>
> > This is possible
>
> Yes.
>
> >> The perversion comes from
> >> observing that even if the “vegan” is causing less harm than an
> >> omnivore, his criterion for determining virtue would allow him to
> >> INCREASE the amount of harm he causes to animals, but as long as it
> >> remains less than that of omnivores, he would pronounce himself still
> >> virtuous.
>
> > You have no good reason for thinking so.
>
> I do. *It is intrinsic to the "vegan" claim of virtue.

What vegan claim of virtue? That's the point; where's the evidence
that this claim you keep talking about has ever actually been made?

> Given that she
> sanctimoniously declares herself virtuous for allegedly causing less
> harm to animals, why wouldn't the "vegan" continue to declare herself
> virtuous if her CD toll rose, as long as it remains below what she
> imagines to be the death toll for omnivores?
>

I'm not aware of any evidence that any vegan has ever declared
themselves to be virtuous. I think it's entirely the product of your
imagination.

> In fact, that is exactly what she'd do. *And it *is*, of course, a given
> that the "vegan" declares herself virtuous for supposedly causing less
> animal death and suffering.

And why would that be?

>*Your good buddy "glen" or "mark" or
> whatever the **** his name really is, is a prime example.
>

I don't know where you got the idea that he's my good buddy, I've only
just met him. He seems to have the idea that there is some moral wrong
in which you are engaged which he is refraining from altogether. I
doubt that he can defend this claim, but that's between you and him.
However, it would not be correct to characterise his view as being
that he is virtuous just because he causes less suffering. If he
wanted to put forward a claim that he was virtuous (and I haven't seen
him do that) he would defend it on some other grounds.

> >> How can increasing the harm one causes to animals be called
> >> virtuous?
>
> >> “Veganism” is bullshit through and through. It is a false moral pose
> >> based wholly on self-exaltation.
>
> > Plenty of people are vegan simply because they want to try to reduce
> > suffering, myself included.
>
> You have no valid reason for believing it does so.

I think I do. I think that I have read reliable information about the
suffering that animals endure on modern factory farms, as well as
having been in some myself and also viewed a lot of video footage of
factory farms and slaughterhouses, and I think I have good reason to
believe that modern animal farming causes a lot of suffering.
Furthermore I think I also have good reason to believe that, in the
case of most animal food products, more crop production is required,
and therefore more CDs from crop production, in order to produce a
serving of the animal food product than in order to produce a
calorically equivalent serving of plant-based food product. There may
be some exceptions, rice may involve a lot of harm, for example, and
grass-fed beef not very much, although it may be difficult to be sure
that any beef you buy is really 100% grass-fed. I think that I have
good reason to believe that being vegan is a good way to reduce the
amount of suffering and premature death required to produce my food. I
also think that there is not a lot I could do to make any further
reduction, short of making extreme sacrifices like quitting my job and
joining a commune.

If you think that I am mistaken about this then perhaps you can show
me where I've gone wrong.