On Mar 5, 8:22*pm, dh@. wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Mar 2012 09:35:17 -0800 (PST), Rupert >
> wrote:
>
> >On 2 Mrz., 16:43, Goo wrote:
>
> >> Forget about ****wit's lack of hard evidence. *You have to make a wholly
> >> implausible case to try to suggest that calorically equivalent servings
> >> of beef and rice have a collateral death toll that favors the rice.
>
> >I never said anything about rice.
>
> * * We were discussing soy because I am overly generous, just as I also was with
> the estimate of 5 deaths related to a type of animal that is often likely to
> produce none.
>
> >But I also don't have any idea about what could be said about
> >calorically equivalent servings of beef and rice, either.
>
> * * Rice would necessarily involve even more than soy. If you figure up the
> difference between grass raised milk and rice milk the difference would be even
> more huge in favor of the cow milk. HUGE!!!
>
> >> *Now
> >> I get the pleasure once again of telling you what you do and don't
> >> believe, because I know: *you do not believe that the rice causes fewer
> >> CDs than the beef.
>
> >No, I don't. I lack a belief one way or the other, because I have no
> >evidence one way or the other.
>
> * * In some cases soy causes more and in some beef causes more. Can you get that
> far along with it, doctor?
>

If that is the case, then it seems unlikely that, as you claimed, one
serving of soy product is likely to involve hundreds of times as many
death as a calorically equivalent serving of grass-fed beef. So you
should stop making that claim.

> >(I assume you're talking about fully grass-fed beef, by the way, the
> >cattle are put out to pasture the whole year round. Yes?)
>
> * * Start with that.
>
> >In any case I never said anything about rice. I was talking about
> >tofu.
>
> * * It looks like we're on rice too now. Rice is *worse then either.. It's
> probably the worst of all. What could be worse? How?
>
> >> *You just don't believe it, and we all know you don't
> >> believe it.
>
> >I don't have any opinion one way or the other, because I don't have
> >sufficient information.
>
> * * Sometimes beef will involve more and sometimes the soy will.
>
> >Suppose I wanted to go about buying some beef which had a smaller CD
> >count per serving than a typical calorically equivalent serving of
> >rice. How exactly would you suggest I go about doing that, given that
> >I live in the European Union at the moment? How would I be sure that
> >the beef was not partially grain-fed?
>
> * * Go inquire from some cattle farmers in the area. If they don't have any to
> sell you, or know anyone who does, they could still help you move in the
> direction of finding someone who does know. While you're around the cattle see
> if the farmer will let you observe them a little bit, and if so see if you can
> appreciate that some or all of them appear to have lives of positive value, or
> if you see some you feel do and some you feel don't maybe then you could learn
> to appreciate the distinction. That is if you want to see it first hand as you
> SHOULD! If there are any grass raised dairys in the area you would almost
> certainly do better to begin with that, and it's better than beef anyway
> ethically. So a great opportunity for you is to drop by a dairy farm probably in
> the evening around 4 or 5 or in the morning when there are people around
> milking, and ask them if any dairies in the area are grass raised. Also if there
> is some sort of agricultural department in your area or someplace not too far
> away you should call them and they might be able to tell you where to get grass
> raised animal products and free range eggs too. If you could go to a battery
> farm and ask them where to get cage free eggs, and see if they would let you
> look at the birds to see what you think, then go to the cage free place or a
> place where they raise the parents of either broilers or layers (because the
> parents are kept cage free for better breeding) and see what you think. If you
> do that successfully even you might learn to appreciate a distinction you as yet
> claim to be unable to.