On 3/4/2012 9:43 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On Mar 5, 6:21 am, George > wrote:
>> On 3/4/2012 9:10 PM, Rupert wrote:
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>>> On Mar 5, 6:08 am, George > wrote:
>>>> On 3/4/2012 8:55 PM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>> On Mar 5, 5:48 am, George > wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/4/2012 8:27 PM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>> On Mar 5, 4:40 am, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2012 12:10 PM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>> On 4 Mrz., 18:05, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2012 4:29 AM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3 Mrz., 19:18, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/3/2012 4:00 AM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 3, 6:37 am, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/2/2012 8:25 PM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 2, 8:06 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/2/2012 10:38 AM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2 Mrz., 19:33, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/2/2012 9:35 AM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2 Mrz., 16:43, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/2/2012 3:43 AM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Mrz., 23:46, dh@. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 10:36:50 -0800, Goo wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "veganism" is not a reliable means
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> · Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What they try to avoid are products which provide life
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in order to be successful:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tires, paper, upholstery, floor waxes, glass, water
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> filters, rubber, fertilizer, antifreeze, ceramics, insecticides,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> insulation, linoleum, plastic, textiles, blood factors, collagen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heparin, insulin, solvents, biodegradable detergents, herbicides,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gelatin capsules, adhesive tape, laminated wood products,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plywood, paneling, wallpaper and wallpaper paste, cellophane
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrap and tape, abrasives, steel ball bearings
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being vegan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> derived from grass raised animals.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You keep on making this claim over and over again, just as you have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for at least six years, but when challenged to provide actual evidence
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it you are unable to provide any.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ****wit doesn't have any evidence, of course, but for certain there is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strong logical case to be made. What do you think the number of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> caused raising one grass-fed steer might be? How many deaths can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plausibly be attributed to the farming of one hectare of rice in a wet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paddy?
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't have any idea about the answers to either of those questions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I was talking about soya-based products, not rice.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But you certainly ought to be able to think in terms of what's plausible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and seems to make sense, can't you? Oh, wait - maybe not.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't really have any feel for what's "plausible" or "seems to make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense" in this area.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's obviously a lie, but even telling it shows that you don't care to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would be interested in knowing if I thought that it was feasible to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find out.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't care about the feasibility of finding out. You don't care
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about knowing the answer, period.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> False.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope - true.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't care to know *which*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "vegan" diet is the least-harm diet, so that you might really validly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to be "minimizing". You don't care about any of it. You just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to pat yourself on the back and act superior.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You're a fool.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Concession noted and accepted.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You appear to have lost touch with reality.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not in the least, and you don't believe that anyway. It's just the
>>>>>>>>>> sort of childish whining to which you've been reduced.
>>
>>>>>>>>> I see.
>>
>>>>>>>> We all see it.
>>
>>>>>>> You have all sorts of very interesting insights
>>
>>>>>> These aren't exceptionally interesting, but they're still accurate.
>>
>>>>> So when I say "You're a fool" and you say "Concession noted and
>>>>> accepted", I don't really believe that you appear to have lost touch
>>>>> with reality?
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have some idea, then why don't you tell me how you arrived at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this idea.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have done. I have elaborated that the production of any vegetable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crop plausibly causes many animal CDs, and the production of one 100%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grass-fed steer plausibly causes no CDs.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So how does that help me to arrive at a conclusion about the matter?
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Easily: if you want to follow a positively lower CD diet than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "veganism", eat grass fed beef plus some fruits and vegetables you pick
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from wild plants or cultivate yourself in your home garden.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It does not follow from what you said above that this diet would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> involve less suffering and premature death.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It does.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now I get the pleasure once again of telling you what you do and don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe, because I know: you do not believe that the rice causes fewer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CDs than the beef.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, I don't. I lack a belief one way or the other, because I have no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence one way or the other.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, that's false. You do not lack any belief one way or another. We
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know this because you have already said you know that vegetable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> agriculture kills animals. You have *some* sense as to what might be a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plausible number of animals killed for different types of agriculture.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not enough to know how to compare calorically equivalent servings of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rice and grass-fed beef.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. As previously established, a 100 gram serving of rice - or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soybeans or whatever - carries the weight of many animal CDs,
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How many? Give me a range.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to diderot, many thousands.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So many tens of CDs per gram of rice?
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> versus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *no* CDs for a 100 gram serving of 100% grass-fed beef. You can do the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comparison.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No I can't, I have no ranges of numbers on the basis of which to make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the comparison.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You *know* that plausibly, the steer causes no CDs, and the vegetable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products cause many.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Many" doesn't mean anything. Specify a number range.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> All you need to know is that it exceeds the expected value of CDs for a
>>>>>>>>>>>> nutritionally equivalent amount of grass-fed beef or wild-caught fish.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And how exactly do I know that?
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cut it out, woopee. Just cut the shit, now.
>>
>>>>>>>>> It would appear that you do not wish to answer my question.
>>
>>>>>>>> It's an insincere and time-wasting question.
>>
>>>>>>> So you appear to believe.
>>
>>>>>> Because it is.
>>
>>>>> You reckon?
>>
>>>> Guaranteed.
>>
>>> How do you know?
>>
>> I have lots of experience with your insincerity and time-wasting efforts.
>
> I don't believe that I have any way of knowing how the number of
> premature deaths caused per calorically equivalent serving of tofu
> compares with that for grass-fed beef or wild-caught fish.

You know, intuitively and based on plausibility, that raising the
vegetable crops you would have to substitute in order to get equivalent
nutrition causes multiple CDs, and that 100% grass-fed beef or
wild-caught fish causes none.