> As to the grapes vs all-grain matter, you will have to expand on your
> reasons.

I think I was just trying to do a seat-of-the-pants comparison of kits
vs fresh product for both beer and wine. My experience with beer kits
has been with all-extract ones and some extract/sugar ones that friends
have done. I generally put them down as OK swill but definitely not
good. A mid range wine kit is definitely OK table wine. It's not
a real apples to apples comparison and I don't think you could really
do one between beer and wine in kits or otherwise.

Don