"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> Vincent,
>
> In 5 days, you have sent 60, yes SIXTY posts, most of which are badly
> spelled, badly written, inconsequential and abusive. Those that haven't
been
> whining, self justifying, ill spelt and badly written that is.
>
> le/on Thu, 08 Apr 2004 14:14:49 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>
> >> You generalised
>
> >> >> >The trend today is to overwrippen grapes inorder to get big complex
high alcohol wines.
> >>
> >> Where? Not in France, certainly. That's the sort of wild, unfounded
> >> generalisation that is getting you a trollish reputation.
> >
> >It is certainly the trend in California.
>
> So we're getting somewhere. You work for a winery in California (probably
> the central valley) and are responsible for several million bottles a
year.
> You feel that wine snobs (whom you define as people who think they know
more
> about wine than they do) think they know more about wine than they do. You
> define what your winery is doing as "the trend" in California, and then
> argue from a very small and insignificant particular (in terms of quality
> wine making) to the general as if it were accepted practice throughout the
> rest of the world.
>
> You can't make up your mind whether you're arguing about sulphur dioxide
in
> wine or added acid. When challenged on one, you say the other is more
> important.

I love the generalities. Feel free to be more specific so I know what you
are talking about.

?I have answered very clearly, your allegation about what french
> winemakers say about SO2. ALL (bar one) I've ever visited (and that is
well
> into 3 figures for the ones whose estates I've been to) or spoken to in
> shows etc another set of WELL into 3 figures, are completely open about
> their use of sulphur dioxide or sulphites. It simply isn't an issue for
> them, so why should they seek to hide it?

Are you French. If you read what I posted you will see that I claimed the
French tell "AMERICAN" tourist that they dont use sulfites. I dont care
what the French tell the French,, I am concerned about the French misleading
American tourist by claiming their wines are superior because they dont
contain sulfites. I havent seen you comment on this. You can hoot and
hollar all you want about what the French tell you. I am telling YOU that
dozens of people that I enteract with have told me about this French
misrepresentation. Choose not to believe me if you want,, I dont give a
damn. I am simply telling you my experience.


>
> As for acidity in very ripe grapes, I've given you specfic information
over
> which areas in Europe have wines with both high residual sugar content AND
> adequate acidity. No, I can't give you some grape juice to analyse,
because
> its the wrong time of the year. But in many parts of Europe, analysis is
> compulsory throughout the process, and in some areas acidification is
> illegal except by special dispensation. But YOU know better because your
> californian grapes (probably grown with irrigation in the Central valley)
> don't have much natural acidity when fully ripened. And you presume to
tell
> ME that this means winemakers are lying to me.

I dont make California wines,, but i do have experience with them. Nice
try.

>
> >Let me ask you this. A Rielsing is 13% alcohol and has a residual sugar
of
> >2%.
>
> That's Riesling, by the way.
>
> > That means the grape needed to be harvested above 25-26 brix, to get
> >these numbers. And in Germany, Im assuming the grapes had to hang a
really
> >long time to get this high so you know the PH is through the roof.
>
> Do you? How do you know?

This is where your elitism shines. I make wine for a living. I dont think
you do (might be wrong) but you havent told me that you do. You would have
to assume that since this is my profession,, I would know this. If you know
differently,, please explain. I have asked this from someone over and over.
I believe there is a chemist in these forums that can explain this better
than I can and the gent named Tom seems to be an informed winemaker,, may be
he can elaborate. But you insulting me and claiming I dont know what I am
talking about because I am an "American",, only makes you look like a snoot.


>
> >We all know that sugar masks acidity. Therefore a wine with with
residual
> >sugar will taste less acidic.
>
> Oh gee, wow, I never knew that. (sigh... )

sarcasim,,, it doesnt help in civilized conversations. I dont know if you
are being sincere.

>
> >How is it possible to have a well balanced wine that is sweet,, with no
> >acidity?
>
> Try a Wehelener Sonnenuhr Auslese from a year like 2001 from Dr Loosen or
JJ
> Prum, and you'll find out. Try an Ockfener Bockstein Spätlese from a poor
> year and you'll see what natural acidity is all about. You'll also
> understand why in that part of Germany the debate is about whether and
when
> to add sugar, rather than acid.


That is your first attempt at explaining your view point with specifics. I
applaud you. Woohoo,, a real conversation. I wasnt sure if we were capable
of that here!!!!!!

As in a previous post I have made the assumption.( but have not said it
for fear of you calling me a troll for saying something controversial) It
is possible to reach these numbers but it is only possible if the grapes are
harvested under-ripe and alot of sugar is added to the must.

If the grapes are not picked early, I still stand by my assumption that acid
needs to be added in order to make a good, stable wine. Dont take my word
for it,, ask the chemist. If you know how it can be done. PLEASE!!!!!,,,,
TELL ME.

>
> You're at least admitting that you're making assumptions. And they're
> entirely wrong. You see, these wines are not made with irrigation, many
are
> made from grapes planted on hilsides so steep that all work has to be done
> by hand. The conditions are so marginal for the vine that some years the
> grapes barely ripen at all, and the yield is tiny by Californian
standards.
> The Riesling under these conditions gives wines with VERY high natural
> acidity, and even when they ripen fully, this acidity remains. There's SO
> much tartaric acid in many of them, that when chilled suddenly, the
> tartrates deposit out as crystals. Didn't you know any of this? Because if
> you didn't, your initial criticism of wine snobs as being ignorant is
> extremely ill placed, it seems to me.

Damn,, you are still insulting me. All wines parcipitate tartrates when
reduced to low temperatures for a specific period of time; even over ripe
california fruit. It is called cold stabilization. Tartrate parcipitation
is no indicator of how much acid is in the wine.
On top of that, if you are cold stabilizing these wines,, which we can
assume are above 3.6 PH
(if no sugar is added)
the PH rises during cold stabilization, thus making the wine more unstable.
Did you know about the 3.6 cold stabilization factor?

>
> Have you heard of Botrytis cinerea? Did you know that in some
circumstances
> it can be beneficial, and give must with initial sugar content of over
> 700gms per litre, god alone KNOWS what that would be in Brix. AND with
> sufficient initial acidity to give a balanced wine that (on the few
> occasions I've been privileged to taste it) has left me speechless with
> wonder

Know about it? LOL, I was friggin wearing it last summer. I have had
some good botrytisized (spelling?) wines but the infection needs to be
controlled and under optimal conditions for it to add a benefit.

..
>
> Have you made wine from the Chenin grape? That's another grape which when
> grown in the right place, has a huge natural acidity EVEN when very ripe.
> But it's possible that when made in Californian sunshine and irrigation at
> huge yields you can't perhaps. I don't know. I'm not really very
interested
> in wines made under such conditions. (which no doubt makes me a wine
snob -
> so be it). But the problem then isn't so much that you CAN'T get the
> acidity, but that in the conditions under which _you_ grow _your_ grapes
you
> can't.

I'l agree to disagree on that point. I have seen no evidence to convince me
that a Chenin harvested at a high brix holds TA "significantly" more than
any other grape. Once again,, If you are claiming sugar is added and the
fruit is harvested early I am not disputing the grapes would have a high TA.


>
> In the meantime, you've entirely exhausted my patience and have earned
your
> way into my kill file. If and when others tell me you've learnt how to
> behave, you may be allowed out. So, don't bother to reply. I won't read
it.

Proof of the open mind. Ask me questions and then kill file me so you cant
hear the answers. How strange.