On Jan 25, 2:23*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> In article
> >,
>
>
>
> *jlyndon > wrote:
> > On Jan 24, 7:03*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > > In article
> > > >,
> > > *jim c > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 22, 3:17*am, wrote:
> > > > > So you added acid? LOL. What acid did you add?
>
> > > > > On Jan 21, 9:23*pm, jim c > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jan 20, 2:01*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Jim,
>
> > > > > > > Remember what TA and PH represent. TA(total accidity) is exactly
> > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > it means but it depends on the strength of the acids representing
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > the total amount. *You could have a lower TA and still have an
> > > > > > > acidic
> > > > > > > tasting wine if the acids in the wine are strong. OTOH, if your the
> > > > > > > PH
> > > > > > > measures the total strength of all the acids. I like PH because the
> > > > > > > total amount of acid (TA) ,to me is irrelevant if it still tastes
> > > > > > > bad
> > > > > > > (acidic). I use PH (strength of all the acids combined) as a guide
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > make finer adjustments thru taste. Most of the time if the PH is
> > > > > > > close
> > > > > > > the taste adjustments with fruit wine can be made with sugar.
>
> > > > > > > On Jan 20, 6:43*am, jim c > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for
> > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > fruit wine with sugar added.
>
> > > > > > > > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the
> > > > > > > > > > characteristics
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and
> > > > > > > > > > palettes
> > > > > > > > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a
> > > > > > > > > > resource
> > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of
> > > > > > > > > > acid
> > > > > > > > > > levels
> > > > > > > > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?
>
> > > > > > > > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as
> > > > > > > > > > per
> > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry
> > > > > > > > > > wines
> > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I
> > > > > > > > > > attempt
> > > > > > > > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...
>
> > > > > > > > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...
>
> > > > > > > > Mm thanks for that. *I followed the info in Kellers page which I
> > > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > (though it is expressed in percent rather than ppt if I remember
> > > > > > > > rightly - being English I prefer ppt,) offers similar limits. *I
> > > > > > > > adjusted to that higher end. *I guess what I am going to have to
> > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > bite the bullet and attempt to adjust by taste. *I just don't
> > > > > > > > trust
> > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > ability to repeatedly taste the *same wine at different acidities
> > > > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > and over again and properly taste the level at which it is right.
>
> > > > > > > > I will keep your guide parameters in mind mr doubles and go by
> > > > > > > > taste
> > > > > > > > also.
>
> > > > > > > > Kind regards, Jim
>
> > > > > > I'm not sure how close it is. *It is noticeably too sour. *Adjusting
> > > > > > with sugar may be another call my inexperienced mouth might flop at!
> > > > > > It's a minefield. *I wish I'd gone more conservative on the acid
> > > > > > front
> > > > > > now, but the additions I made weren't far different to many recipes I
> > > > > > have seen.
>
> > > > > > Thanks for the advice again!
>
> > > > > > Jim
>
> > > > Yes, as per Keller reipes for blackberry wines and elderberry wines I
> > > > used a little acid blend. *The batch I made previously without
> > > > blackberries seemed pretty much spot on to me - I guess the
> > > > blackberries were more acidic than Keller's recipe imagined. *I
> > > > titrated and added acid accordingly (to just under the higher end of
> > > > the acid scale for red country wines) noting that the addition was
> > > > just slightly over the amount recipes for similar wines suggested.
> > > > Perhaps the blackberries hadn't released all their acidic goodness by
> > > > that point.
>
> > > > Jim
>
> > > In the future, do acid trials with a 20% solution (20g tartaric brought
> > > to a volume of 100ml), and use .10ml of 20% sol./50ml of wine to add the
> > > equivalent of .05g/100ml to your wine.
>
> > > Have you had your wine with food, or is this to be a sippin' wine?
>
> > > How much of what did you add? Malic is more sour than tartaric, for
> > > example (it drops the pH more than an equivalent amount of tartaric).
>
> > > Have you titrated for total acidity, pH?
> > > --
> > > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
>
> > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...srael_arrestin....
> > > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines
>
> > The acid was added to the must, not the finished wine. *As I said, I
> > titrated at the must stage and adjusted to under the maximum for
> > country reds. *The final adjustment was only 6 1/4 tsp of acid blend
> > (in the usual ratio as per Keller) in total for a 5 uk gallon (6 us
> > gallon) batch, minimal addition really.
>
> > I will be doing another titration before deciding whether I should
> > ajust or enjoy as is, it's just *a little sour* nothing I can't live
> > with, but something I won't if needs be 
*Thanks for all your
> > comments.
>
> > Jim
>
> Try it with food. The oils and greases in food may take the edge off
> your wine.
>
> As I understand it, the wine is already racked and bottled, right?
> The only thing I can think of is, if part of your acid blend was malic,
> you may be able to induce a secondary fermentation in the wine, and
> convert the sharp malic acid to the softer lactic acid. It's easier, if
> the wine is on lees though. Or you might try some chalk (CaCO3) trials,
> to see if that could be a satisfactory answer.
> --
> "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...1/19/headlines
I think the ratio I mixed the acid blend to was 3:2:1
Tartaric:Malic:Citric acid.
No it isn't bottled yet, I just post-oaked the oldest as I discovered
the younger elderberries that I had oaked were far superior to the
older unoaked batch. I have been waiting for a chance to do another
TA titration to see 'technically' what the acid situation is and to
decide if I am going to attempt to deacidify the wine slightly. Once
that is done I will perform a final pre-bottle rack and bottle it.
The wine has already been racked productively 4 times since I first
added the yeast and any further racking will have to be topped up with
water or bought wine as I have no surplus around.
It is better with food definitely, I totally agree that an oily food
partners well with acidity - I had a wine of similar acidity yesterday
and it worked well, though I am trying to craft this wine to be my
staple drinking wine, so I think a drop of a little edge would be good
across the whole batch. I shall leave the second wine from this batch
a little higher acid as it is lighter, suits the liveliness and will
probably be used more often with food than its heavier first press
brothers.
Thanks for all the input both, it is appreciated!
Jim