On Jan 24, 2:35*pm, wrote:
> Jim, I was told long ago by a very good winemaker that PH is the only
> thing you should take into consideration before fermenting. I've been
> doing it that way ever since and never had a problem. TA is done after
> the ferment.
>
> On Jan 24, 5:10*am, jlyndon > wrote:
>
> > On Jan 24, 7:03*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
>
> > > In article
> > > >,
> > > *jim c > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 22, 3:17*am, wrote:
> > > > > So you added acid? LOL. What acid did you add?
>
> > > > > On Jan 21, 9:23*pm, jim c > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jan 20, 2:01*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Jim,
>
> > > > > > > Remember what TA and PH represent. TA(total accidity) is exactly what
> > > > > > > it means but it depends on the strength of the acids representing the
> > > > > > > the total amount. *You could have a lower TA and still have an acidic
> > > > > > > tasting wine if the acids in the wine are strong. OTOH, if your the PH
> > > > > > > measures the total strength of all the acids. I like PH because the
> > > > > > > total amount of acid (TA) ,to me is irrelevant if it still tastes bad
> > > > > > > (acidic). I use PH (strength of all the acids combined) as a guide and
> > > > > > > make finer adjustments thru taste. Most of the time if the PH is close
> > > > > > > the taste adjustments with fruit wine can be made with sugar.
>
> > > > > > > On Jan 20, 6:43*am, jim c > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > > > > > > > > fruit wine with sugar added.
>
> > > > > > > > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and
> > > > > > > > > > palettes
> > > > > > > > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource
> > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid
> > > > > > > > > > levels
> > > > > > > > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?
>
> > > > > > > > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per
> > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines
> > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I
> > > > > > > > > > attempt
> > > > > > > > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...
>
> > > > > > > > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...
>
> > > > > > > > Mm thanks for that. *I followed the info in Kellers page which I
> > > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > (though it is expressed in percent rather than ppt if I remember
> > > > > > > > rightly - being English I prefer ppt,) offers similar limits. *I
> > > > > > > > adjusted to that higher end. *I guess what I am going to have to do
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > bite the bullet and attempt to adjust by taste. *I just don't trust
> > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > ability to repeatedly taste the *same wine at different acidities
> > > > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > and over again and properly taste the level at which it is right.
>
> > > > > > > > I will keep your guide parameters in mind mr doubles and go by taste
> > > > > > > > also.
>
> > > > > > > > Kind regards, Jim
>
> > > > > > I'm not sure how close it is. *It is noticeably too sour. *Adjusting
> > > > > > with sugar may be another call my inexperienced mouth might flop at!
> > > > > > It's a minefield. *I wish I'd gone more conservative on the acid front
> > > > > > now, but the additions I made weren't far different to many recipes I
> > > > > > have seen.
>
> > > > > > Thanks for the advice again!
>
> > > > > > Jim
>
> > > > Yes, as per Keller reipes for blackberry wines and elderberry wines I
> > > > used a little acid blend. *The batch I made previously without
> > > > blackberries seemed pretty much spot on to me - I guess the
> > > > blackberries were more acidic than Keller's recipe imagined. *I
> > > > titrated and added acid accordingly (to just under the higher end of
> > > > the acid scale for red country wines) noting that the addition was
> > > > just slightly over the amount recipes for similar wines suggested.
> > > > Perhaps the blackberries hadn't released all their acidic goodness by
> > > > that point.
>
> > > > Jim
>
> > > In the future, do acid trials with a 20% solution (20g tartaric brought
> > > to a volume of 100ml), and use .10ml of 20% sol./50ml of wine to add the
> > > equivalent of .05g/100ml to your wine.
>
> > > Have you had your wine with food, or is this to be a sippin' wine?
>
> > > How much of what did you add? Malic is more sour than tartaric, for
> > > example (it drops the pH more than an equivalent amount of tartaric).
>
> > > Have you titrated for total acidity, pH?
> > > --
> > > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
>
> > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...srael_arrestin....
>
> > The acid was added to the must, not the finished wine. *As I said, I
> > titrated at the must stage and adjusted to under the maximum for
> > country reds. *The final adjustment was only 6 1/4 tsp of acid blend
> > (in the usual ratio as per Keller) in total for a 5 uk gallon (6 us
> > gallon) batch, minimal addition really.
>
> > I will be doing another titration before deciding whether I should
> > ajust or enjoy as is, it's just *a little sour* nothing I can't live
> > with, but something I won't if needs be 
*Thanks for all your
> > comments.
>
> > Jim
Wow, that's news to me!!! Maybe I should invest in a ph meter again
then... I haven't had one of those since my days playing with
hydroponics...
I am guessing I am not faaaaaaar off with the small amount of acid
added, but I shall titrate and check again. The last thing I want to
do is bottle it and regret not adjusting (if totally necessary) for
the rest of its shelf life.
Cheers, Jim