"Rupert" > wrote in message
...
On Dec 29, 11:01 am, "Dutch" > wrote:
> "Rupert" > wrote
>
> Never in my life have I believed that the typical vegan lifestyle does
> not involving buying any products whose production contributes to the
> suffering and premature death of sentient nonhumans. I was well aware
> that that was not the case in adolescence, before I seriously
> contemplated giving up meat, and frequently discussed the point with
> my friends. I would certainly be aware of the truth of that matter one
> way or the other. I believe you once remarked that I had no reason to
> disbelieve Dutch about some testimony that he gave, well, you have no
> rational grounds whatsoever for disbelieving this testimony.
> ---------->
>
> Again, the elephant in the room, the REAL issue, the issue of viewing
> animals as commodities. I think the concern is misguided politicking.
>
> Veganism clearly addresses that issue, but vegans frequently confuse,
> conflate and equivocate that issue with issues of legitimate concern, like
> health, the environment and animal suffering. Don't assume that by
> avoiding
> that sauce or substituting that tofu steak for that salmon steak you
> contributed to lessening animal suffering in any meaningful way, even
> though
> you fulfilled your goal to remain pure, to avoid being an "exploiter"
> using
> animals *as end products*.
>

I'm not sure what your point is here,
------>

I could hardly make it any clearer, *veganism*, the substitition of products
which do not contain animal parts, fulfils the principle of not *exploiting
animals as commodities* but does not elevate or deify the vegan in any way
more than the omnivore who also takes steps to reduce his impact. Being a
vegan *overall* probably has a positive effect in this regard, but it
carries the risk of turning the person into an anal-retentive nit who
studies the small print on bottles of sauce in dimply-lit restaurants,
sneers secretively at people in the meat aisle, and drops unsolicited
insulting, not-very-subtle suggestions to others about how they should eat.

I thought we were agreed that a
widespread transition to veganism would lead to a significant
reduction in animal suffering.
---------->

It might, but the issue I just brought up essentially wipes out that
advantage in my opinion.


By being vegan and publicly defending
this stance I am doing my bit to reduce my share of responsibility for
the problem.
------>

Why should you defend it? so does the person who consumes less, consumes
fewer imported goods, etc.

> Personally it does not bother me that animals are viewed as commodities,
> as
> long as their capacity to suffer pain and deprivation is taken into
> account.

Which they clearly aren't...
------------>

That is something that can be addressed, and it is a more practical and
straightforward solution than equating omnivorism with cannibalism, or
murder, which is essentially what vegans try to do, the honest ones.