On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 16:22:29 +0100, Ian Hoare
> wrote:

>Salut/Hi Frogleg,

Hey, Ian. Great to see you back!
>
>I'm back from the UK and as the one who most incurred your wrath, I'll
>answer yet again, in the full knowledge that you won't change your mind.

(Funny how both never changing one's mind, and *always* changing one's
mind are both derogatory.)

>
>>This is, at least in part, my point. I don't like being pushed into a
>>chauvinsit corner,
>
>But that's exactly where you are if you reject many special ethnic products
>as "newts' sweat" or whatever, and in the same breath claim that what you
>get as ethnic food in the USA is just as good as the real thing.

I believe I introduced toad-sweat (no mention of newts) when asking
what secret local ingredients were so essential to a cuisine that no
dish could be properly made outside the country/area of origin. I did
*not* reject ethnic products en masse, although I have no desire to
try chicken feet or shark's fin in any guise. I *never* said my local
choices were "as good as the real thing," although I *will* argue that
aside from non-traveling ingredients, *many* dishes can be respectably
reproduced and enjoyed.

>The taste and texture [of chicken and beef] is entirely different.
>This doesn't lead to subtle
>differences of no importance, but to profound differences in cooking time,
>texture - so important to asian food - and intensity of flavour.

This may be true. However, a good part of the charm, to me, is the
Asian use of meat as a flavoring, not a primary ingredient. A recently
posted recipe for Cha Jang Mein contains 4oz of pork and an optional
4oz of shrimp for 8 servings, together with a boatload of spices, veg,
and noodles. You gonna tell me I can't get the right kind of 1/2 oz of
pork to have an "authentic" experience?
>
>Another thing. In Asia - at least in Singapore Malacca and Hong Kong, where
>I've eaten asian food AND seen the markets, no restaurant worth its name
>would consider using anything other than live seafood. In the USA, how many
>do so?

I will admit that my experience with live seafood (outside lobster,
oysters, and crab) is limited. I've never been to one of those toney
restaurants with a fish tank to choose from.

> Add these differences to the
>availability of fresh (exotic in the US) vegetables as opposed to imported
>ones and you can see that "dumbed down" is a kind understatement.

I reject that entirely. It is *difficult* but not impossible to have a
considerable variety of fresh "exotic" vegetables. Fruits are
trickier. I have grown bitter melon, lemon grass, Thai basil &
eggplant, long beans, winged beans, bok choi, a zillion chiles, quite
a variety of peas, melons, etc., etc. You are also short-changing
the originators of any cuisine in implying it *can't* be adapted. "Oh,
my. I would make my special soup, but now that I can't get the leaves
that grow on only one plant that lives only in that 1 acre outside my
village, it's impossible." This is the stuff of fairy tale, not
reality. I betcha if you take a Hong Kong chef and plunk him down in
the middle of California, he's not going to sit and whine about how he
can no longer create "authentic" dishes. He will figure out something
brilliant to do with artichokes and sail on.

> All I've said is that for a variety of
>reasons foods from other countries as served in the USA is a pallid
>imitation of the real thing. Kindly don't generalise from there to subjects
>about which I've not spoken, and about which you don't know my thoughts.

No mind-reader, I. The green papaya salad at Thai Kitchen (housed in a
former Taco Bell building) is *far* from palid. And given the simple
ingredients, well within the different recipes/reports I've read (in
English. Maybe it's completely different in Thai).

I *don't* think much of "ethnic" food in the US is equal, much less
superior to home-grown, except in spots. Have a measly 3 data points
(2 Beijing natives and 1 visitor) who prefer Peking(sic) duck in Palo
Alto to that in Beijing. I expect that if I wanted to have a whole
flock of terrific Thai food, the place to go would be Thailand. OTOH,
if I want to *sample* a taste of Thai -- get an idea of the flavors
and cooking styles, a little restaurant in the US may have a limited
menu, but not "palid", or dumbed-down cuisine. Is Vietnamese-French
dumbed-down French or dumbed-down Vietnamese? Or a happy coming
together of foodies eager to build on both?