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Paul E. Lehmann

wrote:

> Paul,
>
> I think we have a terminology disagreement. I
> don't think it's physiologically possible for
> laterals to have grapes. I think grape clusters
> are already formed in the bud before the bud
> even breaks. The vine doesn't just create them
> on the fly. I thinkl you may be talking about
> secondary and tertiary buds that would break
> from the area close to where the primary bud is.

No, I am not talking about secondary and tertiary
buds. If you ever get a chance to come to the
Mid Atlantic area, I can show you clusters on
laterals.

> Those are not laterals. Laterals are formed from
> green tissue.IOW, the growing shoot.

I know what laterals are.

> As far as
> environment is concerned, if you saw how dry a
> sandy soil can be no matter how much rain falls
> you would be amazed. Well drained soil doesn't
> hold any water therefore there is no moisture to
> create humidity from water held in a soil like
> clay.
>
> Bob

If you lived in the East, you would get a close
and personal experience with Humidity -
regardless of soil type.

Where do you live? What are you growing?

>
> .On Jun 27, 8:26 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann"
> > wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > Mike,
>>
>> > One more thought. When grapes grow, they
>> > usually shoot laterals close to the fruiting
>> > area after bloom to aid in ripining. Those
>> > are the laterals that you should keep.
>>
>> So, are you saying to keep the fruit from the
>> laterals and cluster thin the clusters from the
>> main shoot to provide even ripening? This does
>> not make sense to me. Please explain.
>>
>> > Hedge the
>> > vine about 4 feet from the base of the shoot
>> > and hedge off any laterals that form from
>> > those hedges.
>>
>> Those are the laterals that are going to
>> provide
>> the carbohydrates to ripen your fruit. Are you
>> sure you want to remove all of them?
>>
>> > If the laterals formed by the vine close
>> > to the fruiting area get to long, hedge them
>> > but dont cut them off totally. Maybe leave 2
>> > feet on each lateral
>>
>> References appreciated, please.
>>
>> > , there should be 2, and
>> > hedge off all other laterals formed because
>> > of the hedging below( I'm assuning high
>> > cordon).
>> > In a well drained soil you would have these
>> > problems but it is what
>> > it is and we have to deal with what we're
>> > dealt.
>>
>> Please provide location and varieties you are
>> growing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Bob
>>
>> > On Jun 23, 8:03 pm, Mike McGeough
>> > > wrote:
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > I agree with evrything Lon said. Laterals
>> >> > are grown by the vine to help it ripen the
>> >> > grapes. Pruning them off is not the right
>> >> > thing.
>>
>> >> Bob:
>>
>> >> I've got to disagree here. My experience in
>> >> the rainy Northeast US is that leaving the
>> >> laterals on my FA hybrids, on my high-vigor
>> >> site is a recipe for dense, impenetrable
>> >> growth , fungus problems, and undrerripe
>> >> fruit. My site gets 55 to 60 inches of rain,
>> >> has some tall surrounding trees, and is
>> >> crossed by several springs & streams.
>> >> Humidity is high from now til the Fall, and
>> >> then we get hurricanes. If I didn't pinch
>> >> the laterals, basal leaf strip, AND hedge
>> >> the 6' canes as they reach the ground, I'd
>> >> get a poor crop this year and a really
>> >> sparse one next year.
>>
>> >> Wanna know how I know this? Well, let's just
>> >> say I too read Dr Smart's "Sunlight into
>> >> Wine". What works in Australia & New Zealand
>> >> Emphatically doesn't work around here. It
>> >> took a few years to experiment with and
>> >> recover from his advice.
>>
>> >> I do agree that basal leaf pulling seems to
>> >> have little effect on taste,
>> >> but we need to do it to air out the
>> >> canopy. Besides, those leaves
>> >> don't feed the berries anyway.
>>
>> >> To Paul:
>>
>> >> It's my understanding that leaving the
>> >> laterals results in a lot of vegetative
>> >> growth, and a higher percentage of very
>> >> young leaves, in almost a geometric
>> >> progression. The problem is that the new
>> >> leaves don't become net exporters of
>> >> carbohydrates until about 3 1/2 to 4 weeks
>> >> of age. If there are a lot of laterals, they
>> >> seem to shade out the middle-aged, carb
>> >> exporting leaves deeper in the canopy, and
>> >> the fruit has delayed or incomplete
>> >> ripening. Maybe it would be different in a
>> >> sunnier, drier climate.This is another
>> >> counter-intuitive lesson that I learned the
>> >> hard way. I now remove all laterals and
>> >> non-fruiting canes.
>>
>> >> To Michael:
>>
>> >> My main method of dealing with my
>> >> enthusiastically growing vines is to train
>> >> them in the Sylvoz or High Curtain system,
>> >> with a single wire at about 6' and two
>> >> movable catch wires. Cordons run left &
>> >> right on the wire, and canes are swept under
>> >> the catch wires, which are gradually lowered
>> >> until the canes hang down. This really
>> >> devigorates most varieties and keeps the
>> >> fruit at an easy picking height, and well
>> >> above soil splashed fungi & spores,
>> >> something you probably need to consider too.
>> >> It also makes it easier to cover the rows
>> >> with bird netting. When the canes make it to
>> >> the ground, they automatically get hedged
>> >> when I mow the grassy aisles.
>>
>> >> I hope you can find some of these ideas
>> >> useful
>>
>> >> Great discussion, guys.
>>
>> >> Mike
>>
>> >> Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA
>>
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>>
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>
> Paul,