"Rat & Swan" > wrote
>
>
> Dutch wrote:
>
> > "Rat & Swan" > wrote
> >><snip>
>
> >>>>No -- psychological harm is a form of genuine harm which results from
> >>>>the physical violence and coercion of rape. One major harm of rape is
> >>>>that it is non-consensual.
>
> >>>Being compelled to do something is a far cry from "genuine, physical
> > harm".
>
> >>Really? Let's see how you feel if you are raped.
>
> > The physical harm in most rapes is the assault prompted by the victim
> > resisting, or added gratituitously by the rapist. If I demand forcefully
> > that a woman have sex with me, and she cooperates out of fear of being
> > harmed, then physically all that has happened is sex. Since sex in and
of
> > itself is not "genuine, physical harm" then by your definition nothing
wrong
> > has happened.
>
> Genuine harm does not have to involve much physical damage, but the
> point is that there is real harm, genuine harm, not that a simple
> status is involved, like an age, or being ***, or some such thing.
> Change it, perhaps, to "genuine, real harm", or "genuine, objective
> harm" -- something involving the real world. I think you understand
> what I mean.

Fine, I accept the stipulation. The central point that you can't seem to
grasp is that prevailing understanding of sex between adults and children is
that it is damaging *frequently enough* to warrant prohibition. Shooting off
a gun on a public street or driving while drunk doesn't *always* result in
harm to innocents either, but it occurs often enough that those freedoms are
best curtailed. I may *love* getting hammered and driving my Camaro fast
down Main Street, I amy be quite confident that *I* can do so safely, but
society makes it illegal for everyone, to protect innocent citizens.

<snip>
>
> > You're full of shit. Your shitty logic has you running in circles, and
> > condoning horrible harm to children, for the sake of protecting the
jollies
> > of a few perverts. The only logical conclusion is that you are one
yourself.
>
> That is certainly not the "only logical conclusion" -- and you know it.

Everything about your position reeks of it. You speak as one who is sexually
attracted to children but believe in yourself that you would never harm one
or force your attentions upon one. That may be true, some people think they
can drink and drive quite safely too, but that doesn't matter, the only
effective safety measure is to prohibit drinking and driving.

> Freedom is always capable of abuse, but freedom is the central value
> on which all others are based, and without it, nothing else is
> of real value.

Freedom is the easy part. Democratic rights are all about accepting
limitations on one's own freedom on behalf of a greater good. It doesn't
matter what kind of social structure you want to place it in, it always
boils down to that.