Allyb wrote:

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> You know, I don't even know a single hard core vegan. If that's what
> they're like Rick, I hope I never do.

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That's not what they're (necessarily) like. I am a vegan, and have
been a vegetarian for 20 years, and I have known a number of vegans.
They're people, like other people, and vary tremendously, but most
are gentle people who try not to harm others and are concerned about
their impact on the world. Those who oppose killing animals for
animal rights reasons are often led into rick's trap, but, make no
mistake, it IS a trap. If one believes animals have moral
standing which makes it unethical to kill them for food (just like
people) the argument over which foods kill _more_ is a false one.
One cannot support a system which deliberately breeds, raises, and
slaughters animals because it _might_ (no one has proof it does)
kill fewer. It is the deliberate killing which is unethical. The
deliberate killing of animals in veggie production is also wrong,
but it is not a necessary and integral part of raising veggies.
Vegans suggest we eliminate deliberate killing, and concentrate on
reforming methods of veggie production to reduce any genuine
collateral deaths to the minimum.

As rick and jon both point out, the individual can try to reduce
the number of deaths involved in his personal choices. However,
this is as possible with a vegan or vegetarian diet as with an
omnivorous one, and, indeed, -- as all the non-vegans here will
reluctantly admit if pressed -- a vegan diet choosing sources
carefully will result in a lower collateral death toll.

So, whether one chooses on the basis of utilitarian or deontological
ethics, a vegan diet can be more ethical, and if carefully followed,
must be.

Rat
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