Ipse dixit wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:53:32 GMT, Bill > wrote:
>
>
>>Ipse dixit wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:37:47 GMT, Bill > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ipse dixit wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 14:29:31 -0700, Rat & Swan > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Derek wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>><snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>False. Vegans are not the cause of animal or human
>>>>>>>collateral deaths in agriculture.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I agree. It is the farmers' choice to use the methods
>>>>>>he does, just as it is a drug-dealer's choice to deal
>>>>>>drugs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Rat
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Either are free to drive a cab for a living, Rat. ;-)
>>>>
>>>>Karen Winter
>>>
>>>
>>>Karen Winter = Rat & Swan?
>>
>>Yes.
>>
>>
>>>>is free to withdraw from the market for
>>>>commercially grown produce. She CHOOSES to buy from
>>>>animal-killing farmers
>>>
>>>
>>>Aha. "animal-killing farmers"
>>
>>Yes. She knows they kill animals, but she buys from
>>them anyway. That makes her morally complicit, if she
>>believes the killing of the animals is wrong.
>>
>
> Is there any doubt that killing gratuitously is wrong,

Yes, much:

1. Most omnivores don't believe philosophically that
it's wrong.
2. "vegans" *claim* to believe philosophically that it's
wrong, but their behavior says otherwise.

> and should she
> or you or I who buy from careless farmers and slave keepers
> be held accountable for their wrong work practices, even though
> we all buy from the general marketplace where these goods are
> distributed, apparently as perfectly ethical goods?

1. You know what's going on before the goods get to
market.
2. You don't have to buy there.

Yes, if you believe the collateral death of animals is
wrong, you MUST be held morally accountable. You have
a choice of two paths to get out of your dilemma:

1. Discard the belief that collateral deaths are wrong.
2. Stop participating in the market for the goods whose
production, storage and distribution causes the
collateral deaths.

Doing #1 is not feasible, if you're going to try to
cling to your belief that killing animals to eat them
is morally wrong. That leaves #2. Why don't you do it?

>
>
>>She is in no position to claim to be behaving "more
>>ethically",
>
>
> Than whom?

Meat eaters, dumb ****.

>
>
>>when all she does is follow the purely
>>symbolic, morally empty gesture of not eating meat, and
>>bragging about her diet not including meat.
>>
>
> You are raising two separate issues and trying to combine them into
> one.

No, I am not. You are dodging, badly.

>
>>>>knowing in advance that their
>>>>methods kill animals.
>>>
>>>
>>>And? So?
>>
>>See above, dummy.
>
>
> If Rat & Swan

Karen Winter

> is buying from animal-killing farmers, what message do you
> think she's sending?

Hypocrisy.