"Rat & Swan" > wrote
>
>
> Dutch wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > The position of vegans isn't "less animal deaths", it's "meat eaters are
> > immoral".
>
> This unjustified sense of...guilt, inadequacy,whatever...is at the
> root of the Antis' personal-attack style.

The position of vegans isn't "less animal deaths", it's "meat eaters are
immoral". "Style" is a diversion.

> Yes, some vegans will
> claim meat-eaters are immoral,
> just as particularly nasty Antis
> will claim that ALL vegans, or ethical vegetarians, are immoral.

Veganism *means* that meat-eating is immoral. It's not just a claim made by
"some vegans".

> But this is basically a strawman, because none of the major
> AR writers, and certainly many of those who have been attacked
> as immoral by the Antis ( myself included) do not claim meat-
> EATERS are immoral _per se_.

If you say that my actions and basic belief system are immoral you are
saying that *I* am immoral, there is no difference.

> What AR has said is that the
> practices surrounding meat production in our society, particularly
> sport hunting and raising/slaughter of animals for sale as meat
> are unethical.

Bullshit, it's not the "practises surrounding" those things you are saying
are unethical, it's the very essence of them. Even the most humane livestock
farming is unethical in AR/vegan philosophy, unless you are referring to
strict Singerian utilitarianism, and I know you aren't.

> This is not a personal attack on the character of
> meat eaters, or even meat purchasers, who are ignorant, unaware,
> or unconvinced of the immorality of meat production.

I'm not ignorant and/or unaware of anything, I just disagree with you.

> AR is at
> its base a philosophical argument about a basic aspect of of our
> society, as anti-slavery or argument for women rights was a
> philosophical argument about a basic aspect of earlier societies.

I realize that, you consider a basic aspect our society that I believe is
proper, is immoral. However you try to dance around it, "less animal deaths"
is FAR from accurate when describing the motivation behind veganism, which
btw is the topic of this thread. No, it's meat-eaters (or their belief
system if you must dance around it) are immoral.

> It is not personal, or need not be personal.

If I say to you that your belief system is false, based on fallacies,
motivated by guilt, hate and/or self-righteousness, deluded, would you take
that personally? You should.

> It is mainly here
> on TPA/AAEV that the argument degenerates -- usually from the Anti
> side first -- into personal attack.

It's difficult to lower oneself far enough to equal the insult I feel when
someone tells me that I am a cruel, unfeeling killer. That's why you see the
extreme rhetoric from the anti side. As hard-nosed as we might come across
at times, we really are profoundly wounded by the accusation implicit in
your message. We can accept that you have an alternative way of thinking
that works for you, but when you turn it on others, it becomes a
mean-spirited attack.

> We know, of course, why Dutch has a particular problem with this
> concept.

That's so hypocritical, to lecture me about using personal attacks, then
come out with a gratuitous remark like that.

You love the nasty stuff, you just don't like losing at it.


>
> <snip>
>
> Rat
>