On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:58:08 GMT, Gary Beckwith > wrote:

>
>
wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:33:56 GMT, Gary Beckwith > wrote:
>>
>> >you are full of vegan baloney!
>> >
>> >first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand
>> >for meat.
>>
>> Which animals does it help, and how does it help them?
>
>it helps the ones that don't have to be born into a life of torture.
>
>>
>> >second, vegan is not just an eating habit. it is a way of life. many
>> >vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to
>> >organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA, that have many programs
>> >that directly affect the welfare of animals.
>>
>> Veg*nism itself does nothing to help animals, regardless of
>> what other things a person does.
>
>you can twist the facts any way you want. most vegans have a lifestyle,
>not just an eating habit. what's your point?

It's always the same. People who want to contribute to decent lives
for farm animals with their lifestyle should NOT become veg*ns, but
they should become more conscientious consumers. If there were any
veg*ns around who really cared about animals, they would point that
out themselves and there would be no reason for me to keep doing
it. But there are no veg*ns in these ngs who really care about human
influence on animals, yourself included. In fact, you have shown that
you not only care less than I do, but you are opposed to seeing facts
pointed out if they are more in the animals' favor than they are in favor
of promoting veg*nism.

>veganism itself is
>
>
>>
>> >now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
>> >industry providing a good life for many animals. That simply is NOT
>> >true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
>> >lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones,
>> >body parts removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways. Do you
>> >know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I know,
>> >I live in farm country and I see it every day. Even dairy cows are
>> >often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a
>> >dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
>> >full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
>> >outside in years.
>>
>> Some of them have decent lives and some of them don't. If
>> you think they all have HORRIBLE lives then you're being no
>> more realistic about it than someone who thinks they all have
>> decent lives.
>
>the VAST MAJORITY, i'd say well over 95% live horrible lives. did I
>ever say all? again, what's the point? does it make a difference if
>it's all, or most, or 95% or 50%?

It would only matter to someone who wants to promote better lives
for farm animals, not to someone who only cares about promoting
veg*nism.

>> >your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
>> >crop that kills more animals than meat?
>>
>> From the life and death of a grass raised steer people can
>> get over 500 servings of beef. A few meals of tofu are likely
>> to involve more deaths than 500 meals from grass raised beef.
>> From the life and death of a grass raised dairy cow people can
>> get thousands of dairy servings. A few servings of rice milk are
>> likely to involve more deaths than a thousand servings of grass
>> raised cow milk.
>
>you are full of it. you did not give any example. what deaths? there
>simply are not any animal deaths involved in tofu production. get real.

Hopefully other posters have helped you to learn the truth. If you
haven't learned it from the obvious facts they shared with you, then
there is no hope for you at all imo.

>the fact is that for every pound of beef produced, hundreds of pounds of
>grain must be grown and hundreds of gallons of water are wasted. The
>entire earth could live off the grain and water that is wasted to feed
>cattle. get your facts straight. you are completely wrong on this
>one. do you know how many pounds of grain and gallons of water are
>required to raise that head of beef that makes 500 servings?

Grass raised beef is not raised on grain.

>I guess
>not because if you did you would not make that statement.
>
>>
>> >you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".
>> >
>> >It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify
>> >your cruel habit. Virtually all your statements are completely false.
>>
>> They are all true, as was the main point which is that there
>> are quite a few significan facts that you veg*ns do *not* want
>> people to consider. That's because you care more about
>> promoting veg*nism than you do about human influence on
>> animals.
>
>I supposed you know exactly what I think and believe and what I want to
>do. your original statement is full of generalizations of what vegans
>think and do. how would you know what I think? how do you know what i
>care about?

Some types of meat involve less deaths than some types of veggies.
Some animals raised for food have decent lives. The meat industry
provides life for billions of animals. Those are three facts which have
a great influence on animals, but you aren't even indifferent to them,
you are OPPOSED to seeing them taken into consideration. That
shows without any question--there is absolutely NO question about
it!!!--that you care much more about promoting veg*nism than you do
about human influence on animals. Maybe you're unaware of it? That
is possible. The position you take is the same one that EVERY veg*n
I've discussed this with has taken in these ngs, so it's apparently a
natural way to respond. It comes from basic human nature. Once a
person has made a choice about something, and learned to have trust
in the choice they made, they certainly don't want to admit even to
themselves that they might not have made the best choice. After a
person has boasted to others about how their veg*n lifestyle is the
best they can do for animals, they are certainly not likely to want to
later admit that they could contribute to even less deaths by eating
grass raised beef and dairy products. In order to avoid the very
uncomfortable feelings created by learning they were wrong, people
often do quite absurd things like deny that plowing, harrowing,
poisoning, removing the habitat that animals have made their home,
and deliberately killing animals in grain storage areas, kills less
animals than cattle do by eating grass.

>Simply stated, your arguments are not true, your arguments are completey
>full of holes and when given an opporutunity to respond you skirt the
>issue. If you reallly know the facts, why don't you tell me where all
>the animal deaths are that result from tofu production? Three times
>you've said that more animals die from the raising of vegetables than
>meat and never have you given a single example. You also seem to know
>nothing about beef production and the resources that go into it. Your
>arguments are hollow and unsubstantiated. You generalize a whole group
>of people into thinking and feeling one certain way, which is completely
>outrageous.
>
>You should learn more about the facts, and perhaps take a class on
>debating. In real debates, you don't make generalizations and you
>substantiate your facts. You've done neither.

The reactions have been 100% the same from every veg*n I've
encountered in these ngs for over 4 years. No, I take that back.
There was one person who said he was reconsidering after learning
more facts, but then he said he was going back to lurking and I
don't know what he ended up doing. If he's reading this, maybe
he'll unlurk for a bit and let us know.

>I don't even see why you're trying to make this case. go ahead and eat
>meat if you want to. it's a personal choice. Why do you have to tell
>other people they are wrong for making personal decisions that differ
>from yours?

I point out things that people who really care about their influence
on animals should be interested in. As we have already learned, that
does not include you. You are in the opposite position even if you're
not aware of it--you are *opposed* to people considering all of the
facts, if those facts don't promote what you have chosen to do. Which
brings up back to the subject of the thread itself: Facts we should *not*
consider.

>Maybe you're feeling guilty for eating meat and you're
>trying to justify your habit by making these statements?

I have no reason to feel guilt. It would go on without me. If I
did feel guilt, I would buy a calf and pay a farmer to raise it on
grass with no grain. I'd probably buy a veal calf, and provide
it with a much longer life than it would have if I didn't buy it.
Then I'd be sure it was killed humanely, shot on the farm it
was kept on so it didn't suffer from transport. If I ate rice and
bread with a steak from the animal, I'd just have to live with
knowing the rice and bread involved more deaths than the
beef did. I could get over 500 meals from the death of the
one animal. Maybe I'll do that some day, but so far no guilt
has bothered me enough to make the effort. We used to
raise our own Black Angus, and we were in the situation I
described, but now I don't have a place to raise my own
cattle, and don't want to keep a big freezer around, etc.
[...]
>> >> Facts that veg*ns want to disregard:
>> >> 1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are
>> >> killed so we can eat them.
>> >> 2. Some of the animals raised for food have decent lives.
>> >> 3. Veg*nism does nothing to provide decent lives for farm animals.
>> >> 4. Veg*nism does nothing to help or provide more life for any animals.
>> >> 5. People can contribute to decent lives for farm animals, but they
>> >> can't do it by being veg*n.
>> >> 6. Veg*ns contribute to most of the same animal deaths that everyone
>> >> else does by their use of wood, paper, roads, buildings, electricity,
>> >> things that contain animal by-products, and the veggies they eat.
>> >> 7. Some types of meat involve fewer animal deaths than some types of
>> >> veggies.
>> >> 8. Some types of meat involve less animal suffering than some types of
>> >> veggies.