Greetings and happy holidays.

I was also looking for a recommendation. I'm curious if anybody knows
of a reliable source for some quality Imperial Gyokuro. I have tried
it from two different places. One source had a Gyokuro of questionable
quality due to the vastness of the business in comparison to the rarity
of the tea. The other was an independent tea shop in Savannah, but the
Gyokuro seemed very mishandled. I gave them the benefit of the doubt
and bought some, but after much experimentation, I can't get it to
taste... good.

Thanks!
John Emiba

I have found one mf the best sources of Japanese teas is
Gray & Seddon (in Australis). Their Japanese teas are
shipped directly from Japan. Look at their Gyokuro at
http://www.gray-seddon-tea.com/gyokuro.shtml

--
H.L.Law

emiba wrote:
> Greetings and happy holidays.
>
> I was also looking for a recommendation. I'm curious if anybody knows
> of a reliable source for some quality Imperial Gyokuro. I have tried
> it from two different places. One source had a Gyokuro of questionable
> quality due to the vastness of the business in comparison to the rarity
> of the tea. The other was an independent tea shop in Savannah, but the
> Gyokuro seemed very mishandled. I gave them the benefit of the doubt
> and bought some, but after much experimentation, I can't get it to
> taste... good.
>
> Thanks!
> John Emiba

Not to burst any bubbles, but you'll never get any top quality Gyokuro.
Sorry to say, it costs a ton and is auctioned off instantly to massive
bids. For a number of years I had an inside connection and still only
managed to get second level Gyokuro and it cost an arm an a leg. That
being said you can get very good stuff from a number of places online.
Itoen, o-cha, uji all come to mind... but I'm sure there are more
places.

Gyokuro is very difficult, only slightly rewarding, and IMO not worth
it. I have found many greens to be more enjoyable, less expensive, and
easier to deal with. Bird's toungue, que she, would be a pick for a
nice alternative. There are also many nice Chinese greens that are very
comparable now, I think it is teaspring.com that has a nice selection
of Chinese greens that might fit the bill.

Best of luck,
- Dominic

snip

[Dominic]
> Not to burst any bubbles, but you'll never get any top quality Gyokuro.
> Sorry to say, it costs a ton and is auctioned off instantly to massive
> bids. For a number of years I had an inside connection and still only
> managed to get second level Gyokuro and it cost an arm an a leg. That
> being said you can get very good stuff from a number of places online.
> Itoen, o-cha, uji all come to mind... but I'm sure there are more
> places...Gyokuro is very difficult, only slightly rewarding, and IMO not worth
> it.

snip

Dominic, to get a better picture, I'd like you to
describe the difference between the "second level
Gyokuro" that you exprienced and the lesser "very
good stuff" available to us more readily. I've had
what I *thought* was excellent Gyokuro from
Gray and Sedden, but what do I know.

Michael

Michael Plant wrote:
> snip
>
> [Dominic]
> > Not to burst any bubbles, but you'll never get any top quality Gyokuro.
> > Sorry to say, it costs a ton and is auctioned off instantly to massive
> > bids. For a number of years I had an inside connection and still only
> > managed to get second level Gyokuro and it cost an arm an a leg. That
> > being said you can get very good stuff from a number of places online.
> > Itoen, o-cha, uji all come to mind... but I'm sure there are more
> > places...Gyokuro is very difficult, only slightly rewarding, and IMO not worth
> > it.
>
> snip
>
> Dominic, to get a better picture, I'd like you to
> describe the difference between the "second level
> Gyokuro" that you exprienced and the lesser "very
> good stuff" available to us more readily. I've had
> what I *thought* was excellent Gyokuro from
> Gray and Sedden, but what do I know.
>
> Michael

I wasn't trying to split hairs, just inform that no one outside of
elite has even a snowball's chance in H E Double Hockeysticks of
getting their mits or lips on real, "fresh", top level Gyokuro.

Here is a quote from Gray and Sedden:

"Three kinds of gyokuro are recognized: (i) high-grade gyokuro derived
from the first harvest, undergoes moderate to lengthy maturation (3
months minimum), (ii) middle-grade gyokuro derived from the first
harvest, undergoes short-time storage (one month), (iii) low grade
gyokuro often called netto, derived from a second round of cropping,
usually larger leaf fractions, teas are settled but no maturation
involved."

The Gyokuro anyone here is buying is from the latter two (ii) and
(iii). For some frame of reference I managed to get 500g of to me a
very high quality Gyokuro for around $1,000 U.S. directly from a friend
who lives near Uji and that was a considerable expense to me but a mere
pittance and still not near the top quality (this was at auction prices
$100/50g so you can imagine how much even lower the stuff that sells
retail for $100/50g is... which is still expensive).

The thing is that it really isn't worth it IMO. I urge others to try it
and form their own opinion, but for those who would rather save their
money trust me. The tea is good, but it is all hype. It is very
demanding, difficult to handle/store and brew, it isn't a nice cup of
tea you can sit and just enjoy it requires a focus and itensity many
don't have. The Gyokuro's I've bought online have always disappointed
me, they are OK but not like the real thing.

It goes bad fast, and like I said there are just so many other solid
alternatives that it makes it hard for me to recommend it outside of
the standard quality found online just to get an idea of what it is
about. So that is why I say to just buy a small amount of a mid grade
Gyokuro online and call it a day. If you really are into it then branch
out and maybe it will be worth it to pursue some even higher quality
leaf, but it is a mountain you can never hope to reach the peaks of
unless you have unlimited funds and a major connection.

Other areas of tea have their class like this, TGY, Puerh, etc. but
none of them really approach the Gyokuro market. It is a mix of
politics, mob ties, big bucks, tradition, family ties, and such... not
even remotely accessible by any westerner. There could never be a "Mike
Petro" of Gyokuro. And I sure don't even claim to be a minute fraction
of that title

- Dominic

Thanks for the great responses and recommendations. I know there are
plenty of alternatives and I am partial to Chinese teas in general.
I'm just looking for a small amount of Gyokuro to satisfy my curiosity.


I will look into these sources. And thanks for the recommendations on
other fine Japanese varieties.

www.hibiki-an.com has some nice gyokuro that is really good when you
first opened it

emiba wrote:
> Thanks for the great responses and recommendations. I know there are
> plenty of alternatives and I am partial to Chinese teas in general.
> I'm just looking for a small amount of Gyokuro to satisfy my curiosity.
>
>
> I will look into these sources. And thanks for the recommendations on
> other fine Japanese varieties.

www.hibiki-an.com has some nice gyokuro that is really good when you
first open it

emiba wrote:
> Thanks for the great responses and recommendations. I know there are
> plenty of alternatives and I am partial to Chinese teas in general.
> I'm just looking for a small amount of Gyokuro to satisfy my curiosity.
>
>
> I will look into these sources. And thanks for the recommendations on
> other fine Japanese varieties.

Dominic T. wrote:
> Michael Plant wrote:
> > snip
> >
> > [Dominic]
> > > Not to burst any bubbles, but you'll never get any top quality Gyokuro.
> > > Sorry to say, it costs a ton and is auctioned off instantly to massive
> > > bids. For a number of years I had an inside connection and still only
> > > managed to get second level Gyokuro and it cost an arm an a leg. That
> > > being said you can get very good stuff from a number of places online.
> > > Itoen, o-cha, uji all come to mind... but I'm sure there are more
> > > places...Gyokuro is very difficult, only slightly rewarding, and IMO not worth
> > > it.
> >
> > snip
> >
> > Dominic, to get a better picture, I'd like you to
> > describe the difference between the "second level
> > Gyokuro" that you exprienced and the lesser "very
> > good stuff" available to us more readily. I've had
> > what I *thought* was excellent Gyokuro from
> > Gray and Sedden, but what do I know.
> >
> > Michael
>
> I wasn't trying to split hairs, just inform that no one outside of
> elite has even a snowball's chance in H E Double Hockeysticks of
> getting their mits or lips on real, "fresh", top level Gyokuro.
>
> Here is a quote from Gray and Sedden:
>
> "Three kinds of gyokuro are recognized: (i) high-grade gyokuro derived
> from the first harvest, undergoes moderate to lengthy maturation (3
> months minimum), (ii) middle-grade gyokuro derived from the first
> harvest, undergoes short-time storage (one month), (iii) low grade
> gyokuro often called netto, derived from a second round of cropping,
> usually larger leaf fractions, teas are settled but no maturation
> involved."
>
> The Gyokuro anyone here is buying is from the latter two (ii) and
> (iii). For some frame of reference I managed to get 500g of to me a
> very high quality Gyokuro for around $1,000 U.S. directly from a friend
> who lives near Uji and that was a considerable expense to me but a mere
> pittance and still not near the top quality (this was at auction prices
> $100/50g so you can imagine how much even lower the stuff that sells
> retail for $100/50g is... which is still expensive).
>
> The thing is that it really isn't worth it IMO. I urge others to try it
> and form their own opinion, but for those who would rather save their
> money trust me. The tea is good, but it is all hype. It is very
> demanding, difficult to handle/store and brew, it isn't a nice cup of
> tea you can sit and just enjoy it requires a focus and itensity many
> don't have. The Gyokuro's I've bought online have always disappointed
> me, they are OK but not like the real thing.
>
> It goes bad fast, and like I said there are just so many other solid
> alternatives that it makes it hard for me to recommend it outside of
> the standard quality found online just to get an idea of what it is
> about. So that is why I say to just buy a small amount of a mid grade
> Gyokuro online and call it a day. If you really are into it then branch
> out and maybe it will be worth it to pursue some even higher quality
> leaf, but it is a mountain you can never hope to reach the peaks of
> unless you have unlimited funds and a major connection.
>
> Other areas of tea have their class like this, TGY, Puerh, etc. but
> none of them really approach the Gyokuro market. It is a mix of
> politics, mob ties, big bucks, tradition, family ties, and such... not
> even remotely accessible by any westerner. There could never be a "Mike
> Petro" of Gyokuro. And I sure don't even claim to be a minute fraction
> of that title
>
> - Dominic

Until they stopped auctioning real original Dahongpao off this year,
I'd say the tea from those three trees still top the list as "difficult
to get and probably not worth your money".

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

snip

>> snip
>>
>> Dominic, to get a better picture, I'd like you to
>> describe the difference between the "second level
>> Gyokuro" that you exprienced and the lesser "very
>> good stuff" available to us more readily. I've had
>> what I *thought* was excellent Gyokuro from
>> Gray and Sedden, but what do I know.
>>
>> Michael
>
> I wasn't trying to split hairs, just inform that no one outside of
> elite has even a snowball's chance in H E Double Hockeysticks of
> getting their mits or lips on real, "fresh", top level Gyokuro.

I didn't think you were trying to split hairs, but
I had the impression from your previous post
that you had tasted a rarified version, and I
wanted to get at the differences you experienced
between that and the usual ones available to us.
Truthfully, I'm far more interested in your
impressions than in anything G&S has to say.

snip Gray/Sedden quotes

> The Gyokuro anyone here is buying is from the latter two (ii) and
> (iii). For some frame of reference I managed to get 500g of to me a
> very high quality Gyokuro for around $1,000 U.S. directly from a friend
> who lives near Uji and that was a considerable expense to me but a mere
> pittance and still not near the top quality (this was at auction prices
> $100/50g so you can imagine how much even lower the stuff that sells
> retail for $100/50g is... which is still expensive).

With some teas, the law of diminishing returns
applies. That is, a tea for which you $1.00 or
$2.00 a gram is 85%/90% as good as one that
costs $50.00 a gram.

> The thing is that it really isn't worth it IMO. I urge others to try it
> and form their own opinion, but for those who would rather save their
> money trust me. The tea is good, but it is all hype. It is very
> demanding, difficult to handle/store and brew, it isn't a nice cup of
> tea you can sit and just enjoy it requires a focus and itensity many
> don't have. The Gyokuro's I've bought online have always disappointed
> me, they are OK but not like the real thing.

Well, focus and intensity sometimes elude
me, so I'm better off without the premium
brew. On the one hand you're saying that
the real good stuff isn't worth it, but on
the other hand, you're saying that the teas
available to us disappooint you. So, are
you saying that the difference *is* startling,
and that it's *not* all hype? Sounds like it.
(Of Gyokuro, we speak.)

> It goes bad fast, and like I said there are just so many other solid
> alternatives that it makes it hard for me to recommend it outside of
> the standard quality found online just to get an idea of what it is
> about. So that is why I say to just buy a small amount of a mid grade
> Gyokuro online and call it a day. If you really are into it then branch
> out and maybe it will be worth it to pursue some even higher quality
> leaf, but it is a mountain you can never hope to reach the peaks of
> unless you have unlimited funds and a major connection.

I'd say there is nothing truly like Gyokuro.
There is no real substitute that I know of.
The taste is not to be found among Chinese
greens, and Chinese greens are high on my
happy tea list.

> Other areas of tea have their class like this, TGY, Puerh, etc. but
> none of them really approach the Gyokuro market.

Pu'erh can sell at $175.00 per gram. Is that
in the league? The Gyokuro market as you
describe it is new to me.

> It is a mix of
> politics, mob ties, big bucks, tradition, family ties, and such... not
> even remotely accessible by any westerner. There could never be a "Mike
> Petro" of Gyokuro. And I sure don't even claim to be a minute fraction
> of that title

I'll bet you're wrong. I'll be there is a
Mike Petro of Gyokuro, but not a
public one.

All this is nothing more than my humble
bunch of opinions.

Michael

My baseline would be penny/gram. I'll fork out $10/100g at my local
tea shoppe because of payroll and rent. Tea is like oil. It should be
free but too the extent it ain't...I also complain about the price of a
ton of gravel from the local landscaping yard. Nature provides and we
pay.

Jim

Michael Plant wrote:
....hoo.hoo.hoo...
> With some teas, the law of diminishing returns
> applies. That is, a tea for which you $1.00 or
> $2.00 a gram is 85%/90% as good as one that
> costs $50.00 a gram.

Michael Plant wrote:
> I didn't think you were trying to split hairs, but
> I had the impression from your previous post
> that you had tasted a rarified version, and I
> wanted to get at the differences you experienced
> between that and the usual ones available to us.
> Truthfully, I'm far more interested in your
> impressions than in anything G&S has to say.

OK, I kinda re-read my own post and didn't like it myself I kinda got
that impression from rereading it, so I figured others might take it
that way.

> With some teas, the law of diminishing returns
> applies. That is, a tea for which you $1.00 or
> $2.00 a gram is 85%/90% as good as one that
> costs $50.00 a gram.

It's not so with Gyokuro. There is a definite difference, and the crazy
part is that the "fresh" stuff is actually the second grade! Which
suckers a lot of people. That was the reason I quoted G&S. I will say
though that there is a very small high end, a huge mid grade market
(which includes almost all online product), and a smallish low-end
(netto). So that is why I say to just be satisfied with the mid grade
and forget the rest, you'll get the basic point and save yourself a ton
of time and money and frustration.

> Well, focus and intensity sometimes elude
> me, so I'm better off without the premium
> brew. On the one hand you're saying that
> the real good stuff isn't worth it, but on
> the other hand, you're saying that the teas
> available to us disappooint you. So, are
> you saying that the difference *is* startling,
> and that it's *not* all hype? Sounds like it.
> (Of Gyokuro, we speak.)

There is a pronounced difference. But the taste, price, "mystery" and
intrigue surrounding it is hype. I have never bought and brewed my own
at the very high ends, I have always had the pleasure of being served
it. I think it is more enjoyable that way. Owning it is a curse. It
goes bad instantly (well not bad but not perfect after a short time no
matter what is done), it is a bear to brew correctly, and the stress of
screwing up $100 in one pop doesn't lead to any sense of balance or
harmony or happiness for me Maybe to those who happily can play $100
slot machines, but me I prefer to play the $0.25 and splurge on the $1
slots. Basically you need to at least start on the mid grades to learn,
then attempt to move into the ultra high end, but even then it is so
different to brew that you will waste at least $200-400 learning. I
guess to some that is worth it, just not me.

Also, since it isn't a daily tea, or even a tea to drink all that
frequently it is hard to use it up before it turns no matter what, and
it is a tea to enjoy as a special occasion. So it is almost better to
just pay to have it served to you every now and then and let someone
else deal with all the storage, brewing, and stress. At least I do.

> I'd say there is nothing truly like Gyokuro.
> There is no real substitute that I know of.
> The taste is not to be found among Chinese
> greens, and Chinese greens are high on my
> happy tea list.

Actually if you get a chance to try a high quality "Bird's Tongue" (I
believe it translates to Que She) I think you will be surprised. Small
leaves/buds very pale coloring and very close in taste.

> Pu'erh can sell at $175.00 per gram. Is that
> in the league? The Gyokuro market as you
> describe it is new to me.

Stupidly I forgot to mention the DJ industry/market/auction blows even
Gyokuro away. I figured people would pounce on that. I've seen Gyokuro
sell for what converts to close to $500 a gram, and have heard of a
place in Japan for ultra elite where a single cup is about $1k but that
is more for the "ambiance" and status/ego than the tea I'm sure.

> I'll bet you're wrong. I'll be there is a
> Mike Petro of Gyokuro, but not a
> public one.

Honestly I can't see how. The Japanese aren't real receptive to that
kind of thing, especially with things like this. I had a friend (the
one I spoke about earlier) who has been part of the tea business for 4
generations, is 100% Japanese, and he was so low on the totem pole he
was damn near the footer holding the totem pole up. I just can't see
how it could be done, but hey the reigning Sumo champ is a black dude
from Chicago and he has been adopted as a national symbol... so I guess
it could be done. I just kind of like to keep my pinky finger, and
don't really want to get into the Yakuza just to score some primo
tea... it kinda goes against my philosophy of tea just a wee bit

> All this is nothing more than my humble
> bunch of opinions.
>
> Michael

Hey its all good, I always enjoy your opinions... I just would like to
get the chance to speak in person instead of text where I think it
would be a hundred times easier. Like I said there may be a place or
two to get top end Gyokuro online, but I have yet to find one. And
honestly I'm cool with that, I enjoy the small amounts I buy each year
just fine and I'm just as happy.

- Dominic

Michael Plant > writes:

> [...Dominic on the premium Gyokuro market...]
> > It is a mix of politics, mob ties, big bucks, tradition, family
> > ties, and such... not even remotely accessible by any
> > westerner. There could never be a "Mike Petro" of Gyokuro. And I
> > sure don't even claim to be a minute fraction of that title
>
> I'll bet you're wrong. I'll be there is a Mike Petro of Gyokuro, but
> not a public one.

Well, maybe, but I think you realize that if you could remove the
public-spirited urge to share information from Mike Petro's character,
he wouldn't be Mike any more.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

snip snip snip

> Actually if you get a chance to try a high quality "Bird's Tongue" (I
> believe it translates to Que She) I think you will be surprised. Small
> leaves/buds very pale coloring and very close in taste.

That would be a quality level of Long Jing,
not a type of tea in and of itself, if I'm
not mistaken, which I could be. That said,
LJ and Gyokuro have different profiles.
Correct me if I'm wrong here.

>> Pu'erh can sell at $175.00 per gram. Is that
>> in the league? The Gyokuro market as you
>> describe it is new to me.
>
> Stupidly I forgot to mention the DJ industry/market/auction blows even
> Gyokuro away. I figured people would pounce on that. I've seen Gyokuro
> sell for what converts to close to $500 a gram, and have heard of a
> place in Japan for ultra elite where a single cup is about $1k but that
> is more for the "ambiance" and status/ego than the tea I'm sure.

I read every word of your post, snipping
most of it here for brevity. You speak
much about cost and value, cultural values
vis-a-vis money, and so on, but you speak
not one single word about your experience
with the extraordinarily high quality --
albeit not the *highest* quality -- Gyokuro
that others have served you. You have not
offered any comments about the taste,
the aroma, the difference between these
and those of lesser breeds. I can only assume
that this is all a big to-do about nothing at
all. One more try, though: Tell us about
how this tea struck you, what it tasted like,
what it smelled like, how it opened and
how it finished, its aftertaste, its effect
on mouth, throat, and body. Make me
feel the tea as I read. Beyond that, all is
trash. Well, pulp anyway.

Michael

Lewis 12/19/06

> Michael Plant > writes:
>
>> [...Dominic on the premium Gyokuro market...]
>>> It is a mix of politics, mob ties, big bucks, tradition, family
>>> ties, and such... not even remotely accessible by any
>>> westerner. There could never be a "Mike Petro" of Gyokuro. And I
>>> sure don't even claim to be a minute fraction of that title
>>
>> I'll bet you're wrong. I'll be there is a Mike Petro of Gyokuro, but
>> not a public one.
>
> Well, maybe, but I think you realize that if you could remove the
> public-spirited urge to share information from Mike Petro's character,
> he wouldn't be Mike any more.

True, true enough. I sit corrected,
humbled, introspective, thoughtful,
and in agreement.
M

Michael Plant wrote:
> That would be a quality level of Long Jing,
> not a type of tea in and of itself, if I'm
> not mistaken, which I could be. That said,
> LJ and Gyokuro have different profiles.
> Correct me if I'm wrong here.

I'm not a specialist in Chinese greens, I have had a number of "bird's
tongue" green and they have all been very similar. They are not
roasted/nutty like LJ. What I have brews a very light cup, that is
sweet, has a very low astringency, and is very pale. FWIW

> I read every word of your post, snipping
> most of it here for brevity. You speak
> much about cost and value, cultural values
> vis-a-vis money, and so on, but you speak
> not one single word about your experience
> with the extraordinarily high quality --
> albeit not the *highest* quality -- Gyokuro
> that others have served you. You have not
> offered any comments about the taste,
> the aroma, the difference between these
> and those of lesser breeds. I can only assume
> that this is all a big to-do about nothing at
> all. One more try, though: Tell us about
> how this tea struck you, what it tasted like,
> what it smelled like, how it opened and
> how it finished, its aftertaste, its effect
> on mouth, throat, and body. Make me
> feel the tea as I read. Beyond that, all is
> trash. Well, pulp anyway.
>
> Michael

I was not trying to be wordy without really saying anything... I do
have a tendency to do that though. I also am not a technician who has
that wonderful ability to describe tastes with words like a beautiful
piece of art... but I will try. And anyone who has enjoyed Gyokuro
knows it is very subtle... making it even harder to do.

The brew is a very pale almost non-existant color, the taste is subtle
and not grassy nor roasty/nutty like LJ. It kind of reminds me of a
very delicate Pi Lo Chun if I had to come up with something... light,
sweet, maybe a bit vegetal. It is more of a feeling to me than a
flavor, as strange as that may seem. That was the part I meant by the
focus and intensity required.

The Gyokuro's I have tried from online vendors are more like a higher
end green tea like a sencha/bancha but less harsh and not grassy or as
pronounced. It is certainly Gyokuro, just not as subtle and nuanced.

The bottom line to me is that while I really enjoy it, even mid-grades,
it just never fits the bill as a daily enjoyable tea for me. That is
more the issue than the price, availability, or anything else. Brewing
Gyokuro correctly requires a lot of leaf, 2 *tablespoons* of tea to 4
oz. of water is not unheard of. It is good for 2-3 infusions. That's
expensive. I tend to brew it around 130F sometimes upwards of 140F,
this is one tea I use a thermometer for. To me the hype I spoke of is
not the price and stuff but the real lack of anything that is going to
bowl you over when drank... it just doesn't happen. It's subtle, it's
finicky, it's hard to store and really useless to even try, and it is
hard to get. That just doesn't lend itself to an enjoyable tea in my
book.

Hopefully that was more along the lines of what you were after. I've
been extremely busy at work so this took some time to actually
finish... sorry for the wait.

- Dominic

Dominic T. wrote:
> Michael Plant wrote:
> > That would be a quality level of Long Jing,
> > not a type of tea in and of itself, if I'm
> > not mistaken, which I could be. That said,
> > LJ and Gyokuro have different profiles.
> > Correct me if I'm wrong here.
>
> I'm not a specialist in Chinese greens, I have had a number of "bird's
> tongue" green and they have all been very similar. They are not
> roasted/nutty like LJ. What I have brews a very light cup, that is
> sweet, has a very low astringency, and is very pale. FWIW
>

I believe bird's tongue is an older way to describe one kind of
Longjing that is less used these days. Another such term is "spear and
flag". It has to do with the shape of the leaves. I can still find a
HK teashop in the old style that sells them based on those categories
instead of the grades that are now common.

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

Dominic 12/19/06


> Michael Plant wrote:
>> That would be a quality level of Long Jing,
>> not a type of tea in and of itself, if I'm
>> not mistaken, which I could be. That said,
>> LJ and Gyokuro have different profiles.
>> Correct me if I'm wrong here.
>
> I'm not a specialist in Chinese greens, I have had a number of "bird's
> tongue" green and they have all been very similar. They are not
> roasted/nutty like LJ. What I have brews a very light cup, that is
> sweet, has a very low astringency, and is very pale. FWIW

What is the shape of the leaf? Or is this
a shapeshifting tea? Hehe.
is tea struck you, what it tasted like,

snip snip snip

> The brew is a very pale almost non-existant color, the taste is subtle
> and not grassy nor roasty/nutty like LJ. It kind of reminds me of a
> very delicate Pi Lo Chun if I had to come up with something... light,
> sweet, maybe a bit vegetal. It is more of a feeling to me than a
> flavor, as strange as that may seem. That was the part I meant by the
> focus and intensity required.

Very good indeed. Your description put taste in
my mouth. I get it much better now. I also get
the "more...feeling...than...flavor" thing. That
speaks highly of the tea, not strange at all.

> The Gyokuro's I have tried from online vendors are more like a higher
> end green tea like a sencha/bancha but less harsh and not grassy or as
> pronounced. It is certainly Gyokuro, just not as subtle and nuanced.

I've gotten butter and astringency from Gyokuros,
and I mean both in the best possible way. Another
source of pleasure is the beauty of those yellow-
green leaves floating on the water in a black or
even a white kyusu. (Mine are white.) No Chinese
tea hits quite that rich deep color, even the best
Long Jing I've drunk.

> The bottom line to me is that while I really enjoy it, even mid-grades,
> it just never fits the bill as a daily enjoyable tea for me.

Nor for me.

> That is
> more the issue than the price, availability, or anything else. Brewing
> Gyokuro correctly requires a lot of leaf, 2 *tablespoons* of tea to 4
> oz. of water is not unheard of. It is good for 2-3 infusions. That's
> expensive. I tend to brew it around 130F sometimes upwards of 140F,
> this is one tea I use a thermometer for.

Smart. You want to get it just right. I've
gone as low as 125F, but 130-140 sounds
right. I've heard of people brewing it off
the boil, and would like to learn more
from that point of view.

>To me the hype I spoke of is
> not the price and stuff but the real lack of anything that is going to
> bowl you over when drank... it just doesn't happen. It's subtle, it's
> finicky, it's hard to store and really useless to even try, and it is
> hard to get. That just doesn't lend itself to an enjoyable tea in my
> book.

All your points, especially the storage issue,
are well taken, believe me. It's one of the
reasons why, if I can, I buy my Gyokoru
by the gram.

> Hopefully that was more along the lines of what you were after. I've
> been extremely busy at work so this took some time to actually
> finish... sorry for the wait.

No problem. I just thought that the description
of the taste/smell/qi experience was the missing
piece of your orgiinal posts.

Michael

[Michael]
>>> That would be a quality level of Long Jing,
>>> not a type of tea in and of itself, if I'm
>>> not mistaken, which I could be. That said,
>>> LJ and Gyokuro have different profiles.
>>> Correct me if I'm wrong here.

[Dominic]
>> I'm not a specialist in Chinese greens, I have had a number of "bird's
>> tongue" green and they have all been very similar. They are not
>> roasted/nutty like LJ. What I have brews a very light cup, that is
>> sweet, has a very low astringency, and is very pale. FWIW

[MarshalN]
> I believe bird's tongue is an older way to describe one kind of
> Longjing that is less used these days. Another such term is "spear and
> flag". It has to do with the shape of the leaves. I can still find a
> HK teashop in the old style that sells them based on those categories
> instead of the grades that are now common.

[Michael]
I am given to believe that this form of
Long Jing is exceptional quality, and that
those who demand it are as concerned with
the look of the leaf as they with the taste
and aroma. I've read descriptions of how
each leaf set is expected to float (or
sink) in the water.

This idea of the look of the leaf is not
lost on me. If tea is a *total* sensual
esxperience -- No, don't go there! --
I'd say the look of the leaf is pretty
damned important.

Now, off to tea with a couple bare breasted
drunken concubines. (That's poetic in Chinese,
you know.)

Michael

Michael Plant wrote:
> No problem. I just thought that the description
> of the taste/smell/qi experience was the missing
> piece of your orgiinal posts.
>
> Michael

*whew* thank goodness... you're a tough one to please I feel like
I'm turning in homework when I respond to you... I gotta make sure I
flesh out my thoughts with detail and examples and footnotes I'll
turn in the bibliography tomorrow if that is OK.

I had just kind of thought most people have tried Gyokuro at least and
had some frame of reference. The higher you go in quality there is
almost less and less to it up front in taste and that makes it hard to
describe for me. Also, if I had some in front of me right now I can
describe it much easier... I actually am good at describing what I feel
and taste while I'm at it... but to recall from years ago (the last I
really was into the high end Gyokuro) is a bit tough.

The bird's tongue I have is very small very pale green leaves that
truly look like little bird tongues (almost little spade shapes that
roll inward like a tongue). The taste is not of Gyokuro for sure... it
is just a nice alternative which is what I was trying to say. It has
more to do with the pale color of the leaves I think mentally for me
and the nice sweet subtle flavor.

I never use the word "buttery" when describing tea, but I see many that
do. I can see how it relates and as far as astrigency goes I think that
is the main difference between quality of Gyokuro. The mid-lower grades
tend to be moreso, and just a bit more flavor and that is what makes
them *less* desirable to me.

This thread has forced me to now want some even though I have strict
rules where I keep myself to one purchase of Gyokuro a year when it is
freshest... so out my Visa card goes. I'm going to try Itoen, O-cha,
and hibiki-an. I have never tried a few of their offerings so I'm going
to... it'll be a Christmas present to myself... although I promised to
not buy any more tea until we work through a lot of what we have. Dog
house, here I come!

- Dominic

Dominic T. wrote:

>
> *whew* thank goodness... you're a tough one to please I feel like
> I'm turning in homework when I respond to you... I gotta make sure I
> flesh out my thoughts with detail and examples and footnotes I'll
> turn in the bibliography tomorrow if that is OK.
>
> I had just kind of thought most people have tried Gyokuro at least and
> had some frame of reference. The higher you go in quality there is
> almost less and less to it up front in taste and that makes it hard to
> describe for me. Also, if I had some in front of me right now I can
> describe it much easier... I actually am good at describing what I feel
> and taste while I'm at it... but to recall from years ago (the last I
> really was into the high end Gyokuro) is a bit tough.
>
> The bird's tongue I have is very small very pale green leaves that
> truly look like little bird tongues (almost little spade shapes that
> roll inward like a tongue). The taste is not of Gyokuro for sure... it
> is just a nice alternative which is what I was trying to say. It has
> more to do with the pale color of the leaves I think mentally for me
> and the nice sweet subtle flavor.
>
> I never use the word "buttery" when describing tea, but I see many that
> do. I can see how it relates and as far as astrigency goes I think that
> is the main difference between quality of Gyokuro. The mid-lower grades
> tend to be moreso, and just a bit more flavor and that is what makes
> them *less* desirable to me.
>
> This thread has forced me to now want some even though I have strict
> rules where I keep myself to one purchase of Gyokuro a year when it is
> freshest... so out my Visa card goes. I'm going to try Itoen, O-cha,
> and hibiki-an. I have never tried a few of their offerings so I'm going
> to... it'll be a Christmas present to myself... although I promised to
> not buy any more tea until we work through a lot of what we have. Dog
> house, here I come!
>
> - Dominic

So does this whole thread mean that the "Xihu has no good Longjing"
rule applies to Uji? There are lots of tea stores in Uji, some looking
impressively old. Am I buying the crap?

I think for all green teas one rule is constant -- the better the
grade, the less immediate impact it makes (but the long lasting the
aroma is).

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

"MarshalN" wrote:

> So does this whole thread mean that the "Xihu has no good
> Longjing" rule applies to Uji? There are lots of tea stores in
> Uji, some looking impressively old. Am I buying the crap?
>...snip...
> MarshalN
> http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

From: http://www.o-cha.com/uji-green-tea.htm :

"Because of it's (Uji's) reputation for high-class teas, it is
important to note that some of the teas processed in Uji are not in
fact grown in Uji, but are instead shipped in from other areas to
aquire the "from Uji" label. While many of Japan's finest green teas
originate in Uji, having a tea come from Uji itself will not guarantee
that the tea is better than those from other areas.

"MarshalN" wrote:
> So does this whole thread mean that the "Xihu has no good
> Longjing" rule ...

From: http://kamleung.com/triplog/0111huan...angshan_07.htm
"Here is unconfirmed information I heard about LongJing.
XiHu LongJing is seriously under supplied. Let's not talk about meeting
world-wide demand, LongJing produced from the small area around the 5
peaks is not enough to even go around friends and relatives of the tea
farmers. Solution? Farmers "import" LongJing grown in other provinces,
which is not as tasty, and sell it as XiHu LongJing.

Sorry I have to break someone's heart. If you think you are drinking
the original LongJing when you visit these tea farmers of XiHu, you are
a happy tourist, and they are happy farmers."

Elona wrote:
> Sorry I have to break someone's heart. If you think you are drinking
> the original LongJing when you visit these tea farmers of XiHu, you are
> a happy tourist, and they are happy farmers."

Just as with your other comment about Uji, this is also correct. The
truth is that you will most likely never get your hands on the real
top-grade stuff. You can get really good approximations, but nowhere
near the real thing. Again I'm not up on the whole world of Chinese
greens, but it doesn't surprise me.

When I see even the reputable websites among us making all these "Top
Quality" claims when it comes to teas like Gyokuro I just have to kind
of chuckle and take it with a large grain of salt. Seriously when a
lifelong resident of the town where the tea is sold has next to no
chance of getting his hands on the high-end stuff, I can't honestly
believe some website not only has it but then can sell it for
$29.95/50g and still have some in December. I could see a few big
online players getting *some* to sell but I would expect it to say SOLD
OUT next to the add to cart button within 10-15 minutes and for a
princely sum.

Same goes for LJ, or darn near any other super high end and limited
production product. I'm happy to buy the mid-grade knowing it is mid to
low grade, and don't even concern myself with it anymore. If I luck
into a cup or two of really high end stuff once in a blue moon then I
consider myself lucky and really enjoy it for what it is. But I don't
think that kind of market, pricing, scarcity, and effort is what the
real spirit of tea is about... so I happily don't play along anymore.
For a time I did and got caught up in it, but those days are over for
me.

- Dominic

"Dominic T." > wrote in message
ps.com...
>

snip

I'm happy to buy the mid-grade knowing it is mid to
> low grade, and don't even concern myself with it anymore. If I luck
> into a cup or two of really high end stuff once in a blue moon then I
> consider myself lucky and really enjoy it for what it is. But I don't
> think that kind of market, pricing, scarcity, and effort is what the
> real spirit of tea is about... so I happily don't play along anymore.
> For a time I did and got caught up in it, but those days are over for
> me.
>
> - Dominic
>

Too true...I used to think about trying to get the rare (read "expensive")
stuff and am finding that it causes much more stress for me than the tea
would be able to fix. Also again, I think it may be a mistake to conflate
"expensive" and "good tasting"...I think there's plenty of good-tasting tea
out there for prices a person doesn't have to mortgage their house for. That
being said, if a tea is very tasty and also very popular that also probably
makes it more scarce which could drive the price up...lots of variables.

I try hard not to covet a particular tea, I really do...I'm not often
successful but it gives me more peace not to. It's easier for me to covet a
tea that I like a lot but that isn't necessarily the most raved about in tea
circles because then I don't feel like I'm competing against everyone else
for a little bit of tea.

Melinda

/20/06

> "MarshalN" wrote:
>> So does this whole thread mean that the "Xihu has no good
>> Longjing" rule ...
>
> From: http://kamleung.com/triplog/0111huan...angshan_07.htm
> "Here is unconfirmed information I heard about LongJing.
> XiHu LongJing is seriously under supplied. Let's not talk about meeting
> world-wide demand, LongJing produced from the small area around the 5
> peaks is not enough to even go around friends and relatives of the tea
> farmers. Solution? Farmers "import" LongJing grown in other provinces,
> which is not as tasty, and sell it as XiHu LongJing.
>
> Sorry I have to break someone's heart. If you think you are drinking
> the original LongJing when you visit these tea farmers of XiHu, you are
> a happy tourist, and they are happy farmers."

All joy is dead, killed at one stroke by Elona.
And sad to say you're most likely 100% right.
Michael

You may already have it, but here more Gyokuro:
https://www.maikotea.com/index.php?o...26&Itemi d=53.


Hmm that link looks kinda long- But is the page for their tea master!
:-> at maiko tea-
I haven't tried them yet-. I should be getting an order of tamryokucha
from Mellow Monk this week. And I noticed that hibiki has new samplers
up.
-lyn

You may already have it, but here is more Gyokuro:
https://www.maikotea.com/index.php?o...26&Itemi d=53


Hmm that link looks kinda long- But is the page for the Bio on their
tea master :-> at maiko tea-
I haven't tried them yet-. I should be getting an order of tamryokucha
from Mellow Monk this week. And I noticed that hibiki has new samplers
up.
-lyn

taopants wrote:
> You may already have it, but here more Gyokuro:
> https://www.maikotea.com/index.php?o...26&Itemi d=53.
>
>
> Hmm that link looks kinda long- But is the page for their tea master!
> :-> at maiko tea-
> I haven't tried them yet-. I should be getting an order of tamryokucha
> from Mellow Monk this week. And I noticed that hibiki has new samplers
> up.
> -lyn

Thanks, but to my knowledge you can't actually *buy* any of that tea.
It doesn't appear on the site for sale, and I don't recall ever being
able to buy it. The pricing stated seems about right, but even the
highest priced Gyokuro they sell is only $165/280g and isn't the stuff
produced as stated in that article.

If I'm mistaken or you know of a way to order some please let me know,
I'd be very interested. Handling and processing was something I didn't
really touch on but makes a big difference as well with Gyokuro, the
hand-picked/hand-made approach would be near the top in that respect.
I'm not aware of the exact plantation where his leaves come from and it
doesn't say in the article... just the area.

I saw the samples on hibiki as well, I placed an order the other day.
All this Gyokuro talk has me going nuts until I can drink some now
It's like a recovering alcoholic at an open bar... I had been doing so
good too...

- Dominic

Michael Plant wrote:
> All joy is dead, killed at one stroke by Elona.
> And sad to say you're most likely 100% right.
> Michael

<sob> I didn't mean to do it! :-)

The XiHu LongJing information is from the humourous travel adventures
of Kam Leung. See bottom of webpage:
http://kamleung.com/triplog/0111huan...angshan_07.htm .

Kam is better known for his commercial website: http://funalliance.com/
, selling tea, teapots, and Chinese art.

Happy Holidays

"Dominic T." wrote:
>...
> If I'm mistaken or you know of a way to order some please let me
> know, I'd be very interested.
>...

http://tinyurl.com/y2z348

for Gyokuro produced by Maiko Tea Master Mr. Yamashita.


hth

This a couple more expensive teas he
wrote:https://www.maikotea.com/component/p...hop/Itemid,54/

I am pretty sure they have Visa/Master card logo on their website ( I
think it is once you start working on your 'cart'. And somewhere they
also mention setting up a LLC in the states in '05. I have inquired
about shipping- I have a funky APO, AP address that gets rejected by
the web bots- I'll let you know what I find out.
At least if you do end up in the doghouse you'll have warm cups of
Gyokuro in your thermos/flask :-> Let me/us know about Hibikki. I may
order from them as well.
>

taopants wrote:
> > > Thanks, but to my knowledge you can't actually *buy* any of that tea.
> It doesn't appear on the site for sale, and I don't recall ever being
> able to buy it. The pricing stated seems about right, but even the
> highest priced Gyokuro they sell is only $165/280g and isn't the stuff
> produced as stated in that article.
>
> If I'm mistaken or you know of a way to order some please let me know,
> I'd be very interested. Handling and processing was something I didn't
> really touch on but makes a big difference as well with Gyokuro, the
> hand-picked/hand-made approach would be near the top in that respect.
> I'm not aware of the exact plantation where his leaves come from and it
> doesn't say in the article... just the area.
>
> I saw the samples on hibiki as well, I placed an order the other day.
> All this Gyokuro talk has me going nuts until I can drink some now
> It's like a recovering alcoholic at an open bar... I had been doing so
> good too...
>
> - Dominic

taopants wrote:
> This a couple more expensive teas he
> wrote:https://www.maikotea.com/component/p...hop/Itemid,54/
>
> I am pretty sure they have Visa/Master card logo on their website ( I
> think it is once you start working on your 'cart'. And somewhere they
> also mention setting up a LLC in the states in '05. I have inquired
> about shipping- I have a funky APO, AP address that gets rejected by
> the web bots- I'll let you know what I find out.
> At least if you do end up in the doghouse you'll have warm cups of
> Gyokuro in your thermos/flask :-> Let me/us know about Hibikki. I may
> order from them as well.
> >
>
> also, Dominic here is alink for Aged Gyokuro- Which I haven't seen touted anywheres else
https://www.maikotea.com/component/p...hop/Itemid,54/
If this link doesn't work type 'Aged' into their search engine

That shit better come with a blow job for that kind of money



"taopants" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> taopants wrote:
>> This a couple more expensive teas he
>> wrote:https://www.maikotea.com/component/p...hop/Itemid,54/
>>
>> I am pretty sure they have Visa/Master card logo on their website ( I
>> think it is once you start working on your 'cart'. And somewhere they
>> also mention setting up a LLC in the states in '05. I have inquired
>> about shipping- I have a funky APO, AP address that gets rejected by
>> the web bots- I'll let you know what I find out.
>> At least if you do end up in the doghouse you'll have warm cups of
>> Gyokuro in your thermos/flask :-> Let me/us know about Hibikki. I may
>> order from them as well.
>> >
>>
>> also, Dominic here is alink for Aged Gyokuro- Which I haven't seen touted
>> anywheres else
> https://www.maikotea.com/component/p...hop/Itemid,54/
> If this link doesn't work type 'Aged' into their search engine
>

My internal sense of decency tells me that buying anything that strives to
be taken as an "elite" or 'exclusive" is generally bad taste. People of
refined good taste are the ones who can find truly original, superb quality
things where the elite mobs was not yet directed by their "guides".
So, gyokuro does not exist for me. I never tasted it and to all my tea
friends who wanted me to try I said that I cannot drink tea a gram of which
sells for an average monthly salary of most of good people of this world.
Its bad "ren".
It would make me feel cheap and donaldtrumpy.

Sasha.


"Michael Plant" > wrote in message
...
> Lewis 12/19/06
>
>
>> Michael Plant > writes:
>>
>>> [...Dominic on the premium Gyokuro market...]
>>>> It is a mix of politics, mob ties, big bucks, tradition, family
>>>> ties, and such... not even remotely accessible by any
>>>> westerner. There could never be a "Mike Petro" of Gyokuro. And I
>>>> sure don't even claim to be a minute fraction of that title
>>>
>>> I'll bet you're wrong. I'll be there is a Mike Petro of Gyokuro, but
>>> not a public one.
>>
>> Well, maybe, but I think you realize that if you could remove the
>> public-spirited urge to share information from Mike Petro's character,
>> he wouldn't be Mike any more.
>
> True, true enough. I sit corrected,
> humbled, introspective, thoughtful,
> and in agreement.
> M
>
>

Hi John,
Happy Holidays......and always a good tea in reach!

1) Whether a tea is good or bad is a very subjective matter and price
not always a good guide as far as your personal taste preference is
concerned.

2)Gyokuro is not about taste but about AMINOACIDS which can be detected
in this very special tea. The Aminoacids are said to have an influence
on the frequency of your brains alpha waves.A stress reducer or
enhancer of your immune system.

3) I could think of a multitude of other Greens which for me taste
better and are a lot cheaper.

4)There is a huge market for this type of product and there are
different opinions on what is a good ,bad,or better one.

5) Trust your own taste!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good luck for the New Year.
Kalle

emiba schrieb:
> Greetings and happy holidays.
>
> I was also looking for a recommendation. I'm curious if anybody knows
> of a reliable source for some quality Imperial Gyokuro. I have tried
> it from two different places. One source had a Gyokuro of questionable
> quality due to the vastness of the business in comparison to the rarity
> of the tea. The other was an independent tea shop in Savannah, but the
> Gyokuro seemed very mishandled. I gave them the benefit of the doubt
> and bought some, but after much experimentation, I can't get it to
> taste... good.
>
> Thanks!
> John Emiba
>