Winemaking (rec.crafts.winemaking) Discussion of the process, recipes, tips, techniques and general exchange of lore on the process, methods and history of wine making. Includes traditional grape wines, sparkling wines & champagnes.

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Default Stopping fermentation

>From everything I've read, if you add potassium sorbate to a currently
fermenting wine it wont do anything to stop it, but I was wondering if
you chilled the wine to make the yeast go into hybernation and added
sulfites and sorbate, would it stop it, or would it still start up and
use the residual sugar when it warmed back up?
(Got a cranberry wine that's been SLOWLY bubbling for over a month,
with a drop of .002 s.g. in all that time.)

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"Mr. Wolfie" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> >From everything I've read, if you add potassium sorbate to a currently

> fermenting wine it wont do anything to stop it, but I was wondering if
> you chilled the wine to make the yeast go into hybernation and added
> sulfites and sorbate, would it stop it, or would it still start up and
> use the residual sugar when it warmed back up?
> (Got a cranberry wine that's been SLOWLY bubbling for over a month,
> with a drop of .002 s.g. in all that time.)
>


Potassium sorbate prevents yeast cells from budding (reproducing).
Consequently, sorbate is only effective when the yeast population is small.
Chill your wine, stop fermentation and let the yeast settle. Then rack the
wine off of the yeast lees to reduce the yeast population. You may need to
repeat this operation a couple of times to get your wine clean enough for
sorbate to be effective.
Good luck,
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA



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Default Stopping fermentation

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 23:56:42 GMT, "Lum Eisenman"
> wrote:

>
>"Mr. Wolfie" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> >From everything I've read, if you add potassium sorbate to a currently

>> fermenting wine it wont do anything to stop it, but I was wondering if
>> you chilled the wine to make the yeast go into hybernation and added
>> sulfites and sorbate, would it stop it, or would it still start up and
>> use the residual sugar when it warmed back up?
>> (Got a cranberry wine that's been SLOWLY bubbling for over a month,
>> with a drop of .002 s.g. in all that time.)
>>

>
>Potassium sorbate prevents yeast cells from budding (reproducing).
>Consequently, sorbate is only effective when the yeast population is small.
>Chill your wine, stop fermentation and let the yeast settle. Then rack the
>wine off of the yeast lees to reduce the yeast population. You may need to
>repeat this operation a couple of times to get your wine clean enough for
>sorbate to be effective.
>Good luck,
>Lum
>Del Mar, California, USA
>
>

Mr. Lum what about sterile filtering after you rack?
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Default Stopping fermentation

Not really an option for me or I would have done it already. Major lack
of funds ;-)

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Default Stopping fermentation


"Jim" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 23:56:42 GMT, "Lum Eisenman"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Mr. Wolfie" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >> >From everything I've read, if you add potassium sorbate to a currently
> >> fermenting wine it wont do anything to stop it, but I was wondering if
> >> you chilled the wine to make the yeast go into hybernation and added
> >> sulfites and sorbate, would it stop it, or would it still start up and
> >> use the residual sugar when it warmed back up?
> >> (Got a cranberry wine that's been SLOWLY bubbling for over a month,
> >> with a drop of .002 s.g. in all that time.)
> >>

> >
> >Potassium sorbate prevents yeast cells from budding (reproducing).
> >Consequently, sorbate is only effective when the yeast population is

small.
> >Chill your wine, stop fermentation and let the yeast settle. Then rack

the
> >wine off of the yeast lees to reduce the yeast population. You may need

to
> >repeat this operation a couple of times to get your wine clean enough for
> >sorbate to be effective.
> >Good luck,
> >Lum
> >Del Mar, California, USA
> >
> >

> Mr. Lum what about sterile filtering after you rack?


That is the way wineries stabilize wine containing residual sugar. But, the
bottle filler, corker, corks, bottles, etc all must be sterile as well.





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Default Stopping fermentation


Lum Eisenman wrote:
>
> Potassium sorbate prevents yeast cells from budding (reproducing).
> Consequently, sorbate is only effective when the yeast population is small.
> Chill your wine, stop fermentation and let the yeast settle. Then rack the
> wine off of the yeast lees to reduce the yeast population. You may need to
> repeat this operation a couple of times to get your wine clean enough for
> sorbate to be effective.
> Good luck,
> Lum
> Del Mar, California, USA


I went through this this year but couldn't get the temperature cold
enough to stop the ferment completely, so I've also added the sorbate
to create worse conditions for the yeast. I then fined within next 2
months with bentonite and Sparkalloid and finally filtered with the #2
Mini Jet filter.

My question is - is the sorbate I added early in the process still
fully active? The wine is clear and there doesn't seem to be any
activity, and I'm trying to keep the sorbate additions to minimum as I
am sensitive to its smell, so I'm hoping the answer is yes.

Thx,

Pp

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"pp" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Lum Eisenman wrote:
> >
> > Potassium sorbate prevents yeast cells from budding (reproducing).
> > Consequently, sorbate is only effective when the yeast population is

small.
> > Chill your wine, stop fermentation and let the yeast settle. Then rack

the
> > wine off of the yeast lees to reduce the yeast population. You may need

to
> > repeat this operation a couple of times to get your wine clean enough

for
> > sorbate to be effective.
> > Good luck,
> > Lum
> > Del Mar, California, USA

>
> I went through this this year but couldn't get the temperature cold
> enough to stop the ferment completely, so I've also added the sorbate
> to create worse conditions for the yeast. I then fined within next 2
> months with bentonite and Sparkalloid and finally filtered with the #2
> Mini Jet filter.
>
> My question is - is the sorbate I added early in the process still
> fully active? The wine is clear and there doesn't seem to be any
> activity, and I'm trying to keep the sorbate additions to minimum as I
> am sensitive to its smell, so I'm hoping the answer is yes.
>
> Thx,
>
> Pp


I don't know. But I suspect there is little sorbic acid left in your wine.


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Default Stopping fermentation

As others have said, sorbate works by preventing yeast budding or
reproduction, not by killing the yeast. If you slow the yeast activity down
in some way such as chilling, the yeast and other substances will settle to
the bottom. Yeast activity and CO2 generation keeps things in suspension.
You can help by using a fining agent to take things out of suspension and
forcing it to the bottom after yeast activity has slowed or stopped. The
faster it is cleared the less likely the yeast will kick off again before
you are ready. I like SuperKlear for light or white wines. it can clear a
wine overnight.

Once it is pretty much clear, rack it off the sediment and you will leave
the yeast behind. Now you can treat it with sorbate and sulfite and prevent
the few remaining yeast from reproducing again. Let it set for a month to
allow any further sediment and yeast to drop out and bottle. By this time
there will be so few yeast that they will not cause a problem However, if
you did not treat with sorbate, over time, a few yeast can reproduce and
become a big problem.

Ray

"Mr. Wolfie" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> >From everything I've read, if you add potassium sorbate to a currently

> fermenting wine it wont do anything to stop it, but I was wondering if
> you chilled the wine to make the yeast go into hybernation and added
> sulfites and sorbate, would it stop it, or would it still start up and
> use the residual sugar when it warmed back up?
> (Got a cranberry wine that's been SLOWLY bubbling for over a month,
> with a drop of .002 s.g. in all that time.)
>
>



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Default Stopping fermentation

I hate using sorbate too but use it anyway since there is no way I can
guarantee sterility in my cellar, it's impossible on the scale I work
at. I make some wines sweet for others although I can see why they
like them. ( It takes a lot for me to admit some wines are better
sweet, but I'm doing that here....)

Why not go through the No 1 pads (the green ones) and sorbate at the
minimum level? I can't guarantee it's going to work but it's what I
would do. You could just rack and take one bottle off and warm it.
Racking and warmth always seem to get things going if they are going
to. You could use that as a guide for your decisions.

Joe

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Joe Sallustio wrote:
>
> Why not go through the No 1 pads (the green ones) and sorbate at the
> minimum level? I can't guarantee it's going to work but it's what I
> would do. You could just rack and take one bottle off and warm it.
> Racking and warmth always seem to get things going if they are going
> to. You could use that as a guide for your decisions.
>
> Joe


Thanks, Joe, that's basically what I'm trying to do. I think the finest
pads are #3 and not #1 - not sure about the colour - I'm assuming those
are the ones you meant? I used them only once before on a white and
although it looked very clear, I had a huge amount of bypass and had to
run it through the filter 3-4 times to avoid losing too much wine. I
also picked up some metallic taste from the bypass wine - I think it's
running over the screws somewhere in the filter, so taken together,
I've decided not to use the fine pads on MiniJet. It might be somehing
about my filtering technique but as far as I can tell, I'm doing things
correctly per instructions.

The particular difficulty in this case is that having used the sorbate
before it should be used, I don't know what it the minimal level - that
was the gist of my question. If all sorbate I had added is still
active, I am at the minimum level already; if it's partially or
completely gone, I need to add up to the same amount I already added.
And since I can't measure it, I might end up with the sorbate
taste/smell that I hate.

The wine has been sitting in carboys and some bottles for 3 weeks now
in my living room after the filtering and I'mnot detecting any signes
of activity, so I think I'll risk it. Next time though I'll wait with
the sorbate after the wine clears up.

Pp



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Default Stopping fermentation

I follow you, I'm in Amarillo now so can't speak to what I use as the
minimum level but should be home tomorrow.

I have bypass problems on my mini-jet too, I really tighten mine up at
first. What I do is run the nut in until it just applies a little
pressure, bring the other up to that point and then count turns keeping
them the same. I take it as tight as you can get by hand. That
usually does 7 gallons with minimal bypass, after that it's iffy. I
run the bypass line into a separate gallon and suck it back out if It
starts to get out of hand. I have only done whites with the 'sterile'
filter, all I remember is it's green printing. The middle one is red,
I have a coarse one that is blue but have never used it.

I would chance it myself; if it restarts you can always put it back in
carboys and let it finish. I don't know any cheap way to measure
sorbic acid content either so follow your dilemma. It sounds still, a
mini-jet should have stirred things up. It's at room temperature now
so what about warming one of those bottles up to around 100 F with a
heating pad or a low wattage incandescent bulb? If it doesn't go at
that point I think you are OK.

Joe

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"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I hate using sorbate too but use it anyway since there is no way I can
> guarantee sterility in my cellar, it's impossible on the scale I work
> at.


I've been reading this thread and decided to comment on a couple of points.

First off, you shouldn't find sterile filtration to be that daunting. I've
done it at home and had no problems with re-fermentation in vitro. It isn't
necessary to remove every last yeast cell before bottling. That's pretty
much impossible to accomplish even at a commercial winery. You do need to
run the wine through a sterile membrane filter though, and they are
expensive. Fortunately, they are also reusable if used correctly and will
last a_long_ time if you run nothing but well filtered wine through them.
You also need to be sure the wine has adequate sulfite prior to bottling.

Secondly, if you folks are having trouble with filter media loading up on
you, it's probably because the wine wasn't clarified sufficiently prior to
filtration. The best candidates for filtration are wines that really don't
_look_ like they need to be filtered.

Here's a little tip: A light bentonite fining (1 or 2 lbs./1000 gal.) aids
filtration by dropping out mucilaginous sugars that are invisible to the
eye, but tend to blind filter media. Most winemakers don't think reds
require bentoniting, but you and the wines certainly can benefit from it.

Tom S
www.chateauburbank.com


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, I might end up with the sorbate
> taste/smell that I hate.
>
> Pp
>


Hi Pp

Try switching to Sodium Benzoate. I'm sure you will be pleasantly
surprised. HTH

Frederick


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frederick ploegman wrote:
> , I might end up with the sorbate
> > taste/smell that I hate.
> >
> > Pp
> >

>
> Hi Pp
>
> Try switching to Sodium Benzoate. I'm sure you will be pleasantly
> surprised. HTH
>
> Frederick


Just as long as there is no ascorbic acid in the wine. Apparently
ascorbic acid can break down benzoate into benzene, a carcinogen. It
has been fairly big in the news lately.

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Default Stopping fermentation

Frederick - In your experience what concentration of Sodium Benzoate is
needed to prevent fermentation in a sweetened wine?
Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"frederick ploegman" > wrote in message
...
>, I might end up with the sorbate
>> taste/smell that I hate.
>>
>> Pp
>>

>
> Hi Pp
>
> Try switching to Sodium Benzoate. I'm sure you will be pleasantly
> surprised. HTH
>
> Frederick
>





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Here's my recent story. I make Vidal wine sweetened with reserve juice I
save at crush time in late September. The reserve juice is settled, racked
clear, treated with SO2 at 100 ppm and K sorbate at 208 ppm. The juice is
stored near freezing until it's used to sweetened the finished dry wine.

The Vidal wine was fermented to dryness with DSM Fermiblanc yeast, fined
with bentonite, cold conditioned, racked clear, fined with Polyclar VT and
racked again. I noticed a slight fermentation so I added Lysozyme to stop
it (Note: I always have spontaneous ML fermentation in my cellar). In
February 3 gallons of dry wine was mixed with about 3/4 gallon reserve juice
to make an off dry wine at SG 1.006 with a fresh, grapy aroma and flavor.

The sweetened wine was passed through 1.0 and 0.2 micron cartridge filters.
The filtered wine developed a haze which I suspected was a protein haze from
the juice. I moved the wine to a refrigerator at 35F . After a week it
cleared nicely and was racked. At room temperature there was very slow
bubbling through the air lock. No residue formed on the carboy bottom. No
bubbles could be seen rising in the wine.

I added tartaric acid to lower the pH to 3.2 and added more K sorbate to
increase the concentration to 264 ppm. Sulfite measured at 60 ppm. After
two weeks the bubbling stopped and air lock liquid levels equalized. The
few remaining yeasts expired.

This morning we bottled the wine two months after adding the reserve juice,
K sorbate and sterile filtering. As I told my grandson, who was at the
filler, you just have to be patient when making wine.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"Mr. Wolfie" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> >From everything I've read, if you add potassium sorbate to a currently

> fermenting wine it wont do anything to stop it, but I was wondering if
> you chilled the wine to make the yeast go into hybernation and added
> sulfites and sorbate, would it stop it, or would it still start up and
> use the residual sugar when it warmed back up?
> (Got a cranberry wine that's been SLOWLY bubbling for over a month,
> with a drop of .002 s.g. in all that time.)
>



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Hi Tom,
The Mini-jet filters are really small, they are only meant for 5
gallons of wine. The pump has no volume capabilities and develops very
little pressure. That said it works if you are willing to play around
with it. I usually get 10 gallons through a filter before it leaks too
much and only filter clean wine.

As to the membrane filter, you already talked me into using a barrel
and making more wine from grapes, I guess this had to be next...


Seriously, I may look into that but my concern is used bottles. I'm
wondering if I wash them well and treat them with B-T-F at their
recommended levels if that would be good enough. That has always been
my concern. I am pretty sure I can get the wine right, it's what I'm
putting it into that concerns me. I give most of the sweet wine away
so I'm just not going to use new bottles, I'm just not _that_ nice a
guy...

I will always be making at least 15 gallons of something sweet so the
membrane filter may be worth doing. I have also been reading about
some of the pasteurization techniques people are using commercially.
It seems there are several way people are doing that and some of those
are in reach of a home winemaker.

Joe

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"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi Tom,
> The Mini-jet filters are really small, they are only meant for 5
> gallons of wine. The pump has no volume capabilities and develops very
> little pressure. That said it works if you are willing to play around
> with it. I usually get 10 gallons through a filter before it leaks too
> much and only filter clean wine.
>
> As to the membrane filter, you already talked me into using a barrel
> and making more wine from grapes, I guess this had to be next...
>
>
> Seriously, I may look into that but my concern is used bottles. I'm
> wondering if I wash them well and treat them with B-T-F at their
> recommended levels if that would be good enough. That has always been
> my concern. I am pretty sure I can get the wine right, it's what I'm
> putting it into that concerns me. I give most of the sweet wine away
> so I'm just not going to use new bottles, I'm just not _that_ nice a
> guy...
>
> I will always be making at least 15 gallons of something sweet so the
> membrane filter may be worth doing. I have also been reading about
> some of the pasteurization techniques people are using commercially.
> It seems there are several way people are doing that and some of those
> are in reach of a home winemaker.
>
> Joe


Hi Joe,
I bring home about four cases of dirty bottles from the winery tasting room
each week. I remove the labels by placing the bottles in half of a poly
drum filled with plain water. Then I wash the bottles in the kitchen sink
filled with hot water and about two cups of Costco dish washing powder. I
air dry the bottles and then place them points down in clean cardboard
cases. At bottling time, I remove the cleaned bottles from their cases and
place them on the bottle filler without any further treatment. I bottle
about 200 cases of wine each year and I have never had a problem traceable
to using rewashed glass. (Bugs that can survive on clean glass, can't
survive in wine).
Regards,
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA


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Hi Lum,
I guess I'm just too paraniod about sweet wines. Since I give all of
them away I'm working on the 'better safe than sorry' side of the
street.

Joe

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Joe Sallustio wrote:

> Seriously, I may look into that but my concern is used bottles. I'm
> wondering if I wash them well and treat them with B-T-F at their
> recommended levels if that would be good enough. That has always been
> my concern. I am pretty sure I can get the wine right, it's what I'm
> putting it into that concerns me. I give most of the sweet wine away
> so I'm just not going to use new bottles, I'm just not _that_ nice a
> guy...


All my bottles are used. I have never had a problem with them. I soak
them in one step to help get rid of the labels and I use bleach to get
any stubborn residue out of the indside.



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Joe - If you have your sweetened wine stabilized, and by that I mean proper
pH, sulfite and sufficient K sorbate, I don't believe a few microbes or
yeast cells inside a clean bottle will be a problem. Even if the yeast live
they won't multiply and will poop out in a short time. My earlier post
about my Vidal wine is a good example. It took a couple of weeks for some
residual yeast (I suspect they were added when I added reserve juice) to
expire. I waited them out but doubt they would have caused a problem if I
bottled right away. Even for sweetened wine I don't sanitize bottles. I
just make sure they are clean and stored upside down.

With respect to pasteurization. I make beer. I can cool freshly boiled
wort to 70 degrees in 15 minutes with an immersion chiller. Your wine
would have to be in an open kettle to accommodate the chiller. Mine is home
made with two coils of copper tubing, one within the other, sort of like a
DNA chain. Depending on how high a temperature you need to heat the wine
air exposure time could be as little as 30 minutes. And, you could blanket
the wine with an inert gas for protection.

I always make my wife some grape juice in the fall when I crush and press
grapes. I heat the juice like you would do for pasteurization. I don't
bother with a fast chill for this juice and it does change the flavor. She
actually likes the flavor post heating better than the raw juice.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

> I will always be making at least 15 gallons of something sweet so the
> membrane filter may be worth doing. I have also been reading about
> some of the pasteurization techniques people are using commercially.
> It seems there are several way people are doing that and some of those
> are in reach of a home winemaker.
>
> Joe
>



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Mr. Wolfie > wrote:
>>From everything I've read, if you add potassium sorbate to a currently

> fermenting wine it wont do anything to stop it, but I was wondering if
> you chilled the wine to make the yeast go into hybernation and added
> sulfites and sorbate, would it stop it, or would it still start up and
> use the residual sugar when it warmed back up?
> (Got a cranberry wine that's been SLOWLY bubbling for over a month,
> with a drop of .002 s.g. in all that time.)
>


Are you sure it is still fermenting? Or perhaps you are just seeing gradual
gas expulsion due to temerature changes. Perhaps you should consider
degassing and an addition of sulphite.

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse
Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1

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Joe Sallustio wrote:
> I follow you, I'm in Amarillo now so can't speak to what I use as the
> minimum level but should be home tomorrow.
>
> I have bypass problems on my mini-jet too, I really tighten mine up at
> first. What I do is run the nut in until it just applies a little
> pressure, bring the other up to that point and then count turns keeping
> them the same. I take it as tight as you can get by hand. That
> usually does 7 gallons with minimal bypass, after that it's iffy. I
> run the bypass line into a separate gallon and suck it back out if It
> starts to get out of hand. I have only done whites with the 'sterile'
> filter, all I remember is it's green printing. The middle one is red,
> I have a coarse one that is blue but have never used it.
>
> I would chance it myself; if it restarts you can always put it back in
> carboys and let it finish. I don't know any cheap way to measure
> sorbic acid content either so follow your dilemma. It sounds still, a
> mini-jet should have stirred things up. It's at room temperature now
> so what about warming one of those bottles up to around 100 F with a
> heating pad or a low wattage incandescent bulb? If it doesn't go at
> that point I think you are OK.
>
> Joe


Thanks, Joe, good idea about warming up a test bottle, I'll try that.

For the minimum sorbate levels, I've got a couple of tables that
determine the minimum required level based on the alcohol and pH; I
think the original source for this is Peynaud.

With the "sterile" filter, how much bypass would you get these days on
a 6 gal batch?

Pp

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I get about a quart if I tighten it up well before I start. Before I
filter it's clear from either time or bentonite. I run that though the
filter last, even though accourding to Buon Vino , it's filtered.

I soak the filters in sulfite/citric acid for several minutes first,
than run that solution through the filter for a few minutes, just
recycling it. Then a quick rinse with plain water.

I throw out maybe a pint or so of the initial wine colored output
before keeping it. I can actually hear the pump change pitch as the
filter loads up. To be honest, I think I have a dud pump and always
have; I can get it to work so never worried about replacing it.


>
> With the "sterile" filter, how much bypass would you get these days on
> a 6 gal batch?
>
> Pp


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Default Stopping fermentation

Hi Bill

Disremember, and can't find my notes. In any case, I only ever used the
pills (at 1 per gallon). By the end I had used it in 30 plus (33?) batches
with never an issue. FWIW - all of these were "country" (non-grape)
wines.

Frederick


"William Frazier" > wrote in message
...
> Frederick - In your experience what concentration of Sodium Benzoate is
> needed to prevent fermentation in a sweetened wine?
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA
>
> "frederick ploegman" > wrote in message
> ...
>>, I might end up with the sorbate
>>> taste/smell that I hate.
>>>
>>> Pp
>>>

>>
>> Hi Pp
>>
>> Try switching to Sodium Benzoate. I'm sure you will be pleasantly
>> surprised. HTH
>>
>> Frederick
>>

>
>



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