Knowing that many on this group are experienced with this style of wine
making, I'm hoping to get some guidance. Though I've seen some of
this discussed, I haven't seen specifics on how people handle this in
glass. I'm making just a 5 g batch to see if it works out - using
Brehm frozen juice. Any comments or suggestions on my 'plan' below
are greatly appreciated. The grape stats are as follows: Brix 24.9,
pH 3.30, TA 0.8g/100mL
-will dilute to 24 Brix
-use Lalvin D47
-Ferment on 1oz. of medium-toast French oak cubes (in glass carboy)
slowly at 55-60F over 4 - 8 weeks.
-will put through 'concurrent' MLF initiated at about 12 Brix.
-will stir on the gross lees once per week during primary and MLF
-will sulphite once MLF is complete. Do I rack at this point?
-Continue stiring once per week - fine lees? gross lees?
How long should the stirring continue? Are there risks here?
-Fine with bentonite
-Cold stabilize
-Bottle

Thanks for your help,
RD

RD,

Your assay seems pretty good especially on the TA and pH. I would think
twice about diluting the must as a means of reducing the SG. All it means
is a little higher alcohol than you would get by diluting and in my
winemaking I try as much as possible to conentrate flavor rather than
reducing it. Just my thoughts.

Glen Duff
---------
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Knowing that many on this group are experienced with this style of wine
> making, I'm hoping to get some guidance. Though I've seen some of
> this discussed, I haven't seen specifics on how people handle this in
> glass. I'm making just a 5 g batch to see if it works out - using
> Brehm frozen juice. Any comments or suggestions on my 'plan' below
> are greatly appreciated. The grape stats are as follows: Brix 24.9,
> pH 3.30, TA 0.8g/100mL
> -will dilute to 24 Brix
> -use Lalvin D47
> -Ferment on 1oz. of medium-toast French oak cubes (in glass carboy)
> slowly at 55-60F over 4 - 8 weeks.
> -will put through 'concurrent' MLF initiated at about 12 Brix.
> -will stir on the gross lees once per week during primary and MLF
> -will sulphite once MLF is complete. Do I rack at this point?
> -Continue stiring once per week - fine lees? gross lees?
> How long should the stirring continue? Are there risks here?
> -Fine with bentonite
> -Cold stabilize
> -Bottle
>
> Thanks for your help,
> RD
>

I wouldn't bother diluting. My potential alcohol formula say you get 13.9%
with 24.9brix and 13.4% with 24.0 brix. No big difference. If you can
ferment at 50F I think you will end up with much more fruit flavor in your
wine. The Brehm juice should be as good as you can buy. Why start a ML
fermentation? I guess it's OK but you may get a crisper wine without this
step. I like the bentonite step. This will smooth out some roughness the
new wine may have. You might also consider a PVPP fining step which will
keep the wine very light in color.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Knowing that many on this group are experienced with this style of wine
> making, I'm hoping to get some guidance. Though I've seen some of
> this discussed, I haven't seen specifics on how people handle this in
> glass. I'm making just a 5 g batch to see if it works out - using
> Brehm frozen juice. Any comments or suggestions on my 'plan' below
> are greatly appreciated. The grape stats are as follows: Brix 24.9,
> pH 3.30, TA 0.8g/100mL
> -will dilute to 24 Brix
> -use Lalvin D47
> -Ferment on 1oz. of medium-toast French oak cubes (in glass carboy)
> slowly at 55-60F over 4 - 8 weeks.
> -will put through 'concurrent' MLF initiated at about 12 Brix.
> -will stir on the gross lees once per week during primary and MLF
> -will sulphite once MLF is complete. Do I rack at this point?
> -Continue stiring once per week - fine lees? gross lees?
> How long should the stirring continue? Are there risks here?
> -Fine with bentonite
> -Cold stabilize
> -Bottle
>
> Thanks for your help,
> RD
>

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Knowing that many on this group are experienced with this style of wine
> making, I'm hoping to get some guidance. Though I've seen some of
> this discussed, I haven't seen specifics on how people handle this in
> glass. I'm making just a 5 g batch to see if it works out - using
> Brehm frozen juice. Any comments or suggestions on my 'plan' below
> are greatly appreciated. The grape stats are as follows: Brix 24.9,
> pH 3.30, TA 0.8g/100mL
> -will dilute to 24 Brix
> -use Lalvin D47
> -Ferment on 1oz. of medium-toast French oak cubes (in glass carboy)
> slowly at 55-60F over 4 - 8 weeks.
> -will put through 'concurrent' MLF initiated at about 12 Brix.
> -will stir on the gross lees once per week during primary and MLF
> -will sulphite once MLF is complete. Do I rack at this point?
> -Continue stiring once per week - fine lees? gross lees?
> How long should the stirring continue? Are there risks here?
> -Fine with bentonite
> -Cold stabilize
> -Bottle

I agree with the other guys. Don't dilute the juice. Let it be all it can
be! FWIW, I made a 2001 PG using my normal barrel fermentation regimen for
Chardonnay. The numbers were close to yours - pushing 25º Brix. The wine
is sort of a cross between a red and a white - but not a rosé. It's more
copper colored. I really like it, despite the fact that it didn't turn out
to be a Santa Margherita clone. It wouldn't be as good or interesting if it
had.

BTW, I'd use a lot more oak than one ounce in 5 gallons - but then I _like_
oak. Also, I'd probably use a slower yeast than D47. That stuff is too
vigorous for whites IMO. I tried a new one last year that shows promise:
VL2. It's slow and steady, and seems to have good alcohol tolerance.

Tom S

Thank you all for your helpful suggestions. I'll take your advice - no
diluting the must! I'll also boost the amount of wood. Not sure if I
can easily get my hands on a small (5g) quantity of VL2 here in
Pennsylvania, but I'll look for it.

Do you have any suggests on the 'sur lies' process? It is totally new
to me. For example, how long and how frequently to continue stirring
on the lees? Should I rack off the gross lees or is reduction less of
a concern with frequent stirring?

RD

Sorry if this appears twice, I had server errors when attempting to
post...

Thank you all for your helpful suggestions. I will take your advice
- no diluting the must. I will also boost the amount of wood. Not
sure if I can easily get my hands on a small (5g) quantity of VL2 here
in Pennsylvania, but I'll look for it.

Do you have any suggestions on the 'sur lies' process? It is
totally new to me. For example, how long and how frequently do you
stir the lees? Should I rack off the gross lees or is reduction less
of a concern with frequent stirring? Is taste one's best guide for
determining when the process is complete or are there other signs to
look for?

Thanks again,
RD

"RD" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Thank you all for your helpful suggestions. I'll take your advice - no
> diluting the must! I'll also boost the amount of wood. Not sure if I
> can easily get my hands on a small (5g) quantity of VL2 here in
> Pennsylvania, but I'll look for it.

You aren't likely to find that. I buy it by the Kilo from Scott Labs.

> Do you have any suggests on the 'sur lies' process? It is totally new
> to me. For example, how long and how frequently to continue stirring
> on the lees? Should I rack off the gross lees or is reduction less of
> a concern with frequent stirring?

Reduction _is_ less of a concern with sur lie aging if you stir the lees
every couple of days until ML completes - but you still need to be vigilant
for an incipient H2S problem. If you smell rotten eggs, rack off the lees
ASAP.

Tom S

I personally prefer Pinot Gris without MLF or Oak. Perhaps that makes
it Sauvignon Blanc then.

Chris

There is no relationship between sauvignon blanc and pinot gris (grigio)
I also would not even think of bringing any form of oak (chips, liquid,
barrels) into the equasion.
It's a shame that Brehm did not provide you with PG skins (did he??) as
slight skin contact during fermentation gives the wine that incredible
salmon colour. Also try to leave a touch of RS in the final wine just to
offser the natural acidity.
DG
"Chris" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I personally prefer Pinot Gris without MLF or Oak. Perhaps that makes
> it Sauvignon Blanc then.
>
> Chris
>

"wp23" > wrote in message
...
> There is no relationship between sauvignon blanc and pinot gris (grigio)

Quite true. They are distinctly different varietals.

> I also would not even think of bringing any form of oak (chips, liquid,
> barrels) into the equasion.

Why not? Where is it written in stone that one must always make a wine the
same way that everyone else does? That's no fun! FWIW, I made a barrel
fermented Pinot Grigio a few years ago that turned out pretty nice - and
very different from the usual plonk in the stores. It still has Pinot
Grigio varietal character, but instead of being crisp and acidic it's fat
and lush with enough tannin to carry it for some years.

Tom S

Tom S wrote:
> "wp23" > wrote in message
> ...
> > There is no relationship between sauvignon blanc and pinot gris
(grigio)
>
> Quite true. They are distinctly different varietals.
>
> > I also would not even think of bringing any form of oak (chips,
liquid,
> > barrels) into the equasion.
>
> Why not? Where is it written in stone that one must always make a
wine the
> same way that everyone else does? That's no fun! FWIW, I made a
barrel
> fermented Pinot Grigio a few years ago that turned out pretty nice -
and
> very different from the usual plonk in the stores. It still has
Pinot
> Grigio varietal character, but instead of being crisp and acidic it's
fat
> and lush with enough tannin to carry it for some years.
>
> Tom S

Thank you all again for your input. I have to agree with Tom S here.
Though I frequently make and enjoy lean, clean, crisp style wines
(particularly Riesling), I also enjoy a fat, full, oaky white. It
depends on the meal and the setting. I'm just trying to explore a new
(for me) style of winemaking. It seemed that this Pinot Gris juice
might enable me to do so. For me, the many varietals and winemaking
styles are what make this hobby so interesting.

RD

Tom S wrote:
> "wp23" > wrote in message
> ...
> > There is no relationship between sauvignon blanc and pinot gris
(grigio)
>
> Quite true. They are distinctly different varietals.
>
> > I also would not even think of bringing any form of oak (chips,
liquid,
> > barrels) into the equasion.
>
> Why not? Where is it written in stone that one must always make a
wine the
> same way that everyone else does? That's no fun! FWIW, I made a
barrel
> fermented Pinot Grigio a few years ago that turned out pretty nice -
and
> very different from the usual plonk in the stores. It still has
Pinot
> Grigio varietal character, but instead of being crisp and acidic it's
fat
> and lush with enough tannin to carry it for some years.
>
> Tom S

Thank you all again for your input. I have to agree with Tom S here.
Though I frequently make and enjoy lean, clean, crisp style wines
(particularly Riesling), I also enjoy a fat, full, oaky white. It
depends on the meal and the setting. I'm just trying to explore a new
(for me) style of winemaking. It seemed that this Pinot Gris juice
might enable me to do so. For me, the many varietals and winemaking
styles are what make this hobby so interesting.

RD

RD wrote:
>
> Thank you all again for your input. I have to agree with Tom S here.
> Though I frequently make and enjoy lean, clean, crisp style wines
> (particularly Riesling), I also enjoy a fat, full, oaky white. It
> depends on the meal and the setting. I'm just trying to explore a
new
> (for me) style of winemaking. It seemed that this Pinot Gris juice
> might enable me to do so. For me, the many varietals and winemaking
> styles are what make this hobby so interesting.
>
> RD

Pinot Gris is known for being made in 2 different styles - the crisp
and lean vs. the fat, lush and oaky. The numbers you have look well
suited for the second type.

Apparently, opinions on this style difference can get heated at times.
I've heard of a judging contest where there were 2 candidates for a
gold medal, representing the two styles, and the judges almost came to
blows on what's a "proper" way of making Pinot Gris.

Pp

RD wrote:
>
> Thank you all again for your input. I have to agree with Tom S here.
> Though I frequently make and enjoy lean, clean, crisp style wines
> (particularly Riesling), I also enjoy a fat, full, oaky white. It
> depends on the meal and the setting. I'm just trying to explore a
new
> (for me) style of winemaking. It seemed that this Pinot Gris juice
> might enable me to do so. For me, the many varietals and winemaking
> styles are what make this hobby so interesting.
>
> RD

Pinot Gris is known for being made in 2 different styles - the crisp
and lean vs. the fat, lush and oaky. The numbers you have look well
suited for the second type.

Apparently, opinions on this style difference can get heated at times.
I've heard of a judging contest where there were 2 candidates for a
gold medal, representing the two styles, and the judges almost came to
blows on what's a "proper" way of making Pinot Gris.

Pp

Pinot gris and most of the varietals that lend themselves to aromatic-styled
wines are favourites of mine.

Traditionally a pinot gris is not barrel-aged or oaked, left on the lees or
allowed to go through ML for exactly this reason. PG has traditionally been
a crisp, fruity wine, low alcohol, relatively high acid, often off-dry and
sporting a marvellous bouquet. Obviously this does not prevent one from
experimenting and finding what suits them best. My personal preference is
that an oaky, buttery, full wine is best made from Chardonnay, Sauv blanc,
etc. That being said, if I've ever tasted a barrel-aged, ML pinot grigio I
wouldn't have known so would not rule it a bad idea out of hand.

Glen Duff
===============

"RD" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Tom S wrote:
>> "wp23" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > There is no relationship between sauvignon blanc and pinot gris
> (grigio)
>>
>> Quite true. They are distinctly different varietals.
>>
>> > I also would not even think of bringing any form of oak (chips,
> liquid,
>> > barrels) into the equasion.
>>
>> Why not? Where is it written in stone that one must always make a
> wine the
>> same way that everyone else does? That's no fun! FWIW, I made a
> barrel
>> fermented Pinot Grigio a few years ago that turned out pretty nice -
> and
>> very different from the usual plonk in the stores. It still has
> Pinot
>> Grigio varietal character, but instead of being crisp and acidic it's
> fat
>> and lush with enough tannin to carry it for some years.
>>
>> Tom S
>
> Thank you all again for your input. I have to agree with Tom S here.
> Though I frequently make and enjoy lean, clean, crisp style wines
> (particularly Riesling), I also enjoy a fat, full, oaky white. It
> depends on the meal and the setting. I'm just trying to explore a new
> (for me) style of winemaking. It seemed that this Pinot Gris juice
> might enable me to do so. For me, the many varietals and winemaking
> styles are what make this hobby so interesting.
>
> RD
>

Pinot gris and most of the varietals that lend themselves to aromatic-styled
wines are favourites of mine.

Traditionally a pinot gris is not barrel-aged or oaked, left on the lees or
allowed to go through ML for exactly this reason. PG has traditionally been
a crisp, fruity wine, low alcohol, relatively high acid, often off-dry and
sporting a marvellous bouquet. Obviously this does not prevent one from
experimenting and finding what suits them best. My personal preference is
that an oaky, buttery, full wine is best made from Chardonnay, Sauv blanc,
etc. That being said, if I've ever tasted a barrel-aged, ML pinot grigio I
wouldn't have known so would not rule it a bad idea out of hand.

Glen Duff
===============

"RD" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Tom S wrote:
>> "wp23" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > There is no relationship between sauvignon blanc and pinot gris
> (grigio)
>>
>> Quite true. They are distinctly different varietals.
>>
>> > I also would not even think of bringing any form of oak (chips,
> liquid,
>> > barrels) into the equasion.
>>
>> Why not? Where is it written in stone that one must always make a
> wine the
>> same way that everyone else does? That's no fun! FWIW, I made a
> barrel
>> fermented Pinot Grigio a few years ago that turned out pretty nice -
> and
>> very different from the usual plonk in the stores. It still has
> Pinot
>> Grigio varietal character, but instead of being crisp and acidic it's
> fat
>> and lush with enough tannin to carry it for some years.
>>
>> Tom S
>
> Thank you all again for your input. I have to agree with Tom S here.
> Though I frequently make and enjoy lean, clean, crisp style wines
> (particularly Riesling), I also enjoy a fat, full, oaky white. It
> depends on the meal and the setting. I'm just trying to explore a new
> (for me) style of winemaking. It seemed that this Pinot Gris juice
> might enable me to do so. For me, the many varietals and winemaking
> styles are what make this hobby so interesting.
>
> RD
>

Glen Duff wrote:

> Pinot gris and most of the varietals that lend themselves to aromatic-styled
> wines are favourites of mine.

This autumn I hope to do a gewurtz with some skin contact, some oak, and
some time sur lie. I'm hoping for a good year in Niagara!

--
Charles Horslin
Kitchener, ON

"Charles H" > wrote in message
...
> This autumn I hope to do a gewurtz with some skin contact, some oak, and
> some time sur lie. I'm hoping for a good year in Niagara!

You may very well get color from extended skin contact in Gewürtztraminer.
When quite ripe the fruit has some color in the skins - not as much as Pinot
Grigio, but it's there. Pre-fermentation treatment with PVPP might be
necessary if you wish to produce a "white" wine.

That said, I believe the Alsatian wines are made pretty much the way you
describe.

Tom S