I am having difficulties in recognizing these two grape varieties on
their harvested appearance. Once in boxes they both look the same. Any
tips on how to easily differentiate between them?
Many thanks.

As a none grape, home vintner I suggest you mark one type of boxed grape
"Cab Sauv" and the other "Franc" in a distinctive and different colour.

Can't think of a better way --- off hand!

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
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> wrote in message
ups.com...
>I am having difficulties in recognizing these two grape varieties on
> their harvested appearance. Once in boxes they both look the same. Any
> tips on how to easily differentiate between them?
> Many thanks.
>

I agree with Trevor's answer, but if it's too late for that, I'd
imagine there's some taste difference. Since I've never tasted the two
grapes side-by-side, I can't tell you, but someone here probably can.

Alternatively, you could ferment both separately, and their certainly a
difference between the flavors of the wines.

Rob

Sorry, obviously I have not made myself clear. Let me elaborate
further.
I tend to buy a ton or two of freshly harvested grapes and use them for
wine making. These get delivered to me in a small truck. However, I
dont always trust the growers/sellers as to which variety they claim
their grapes are. Obviously they want to get rid of their grapes ASAP
and if they claim it is franc or sauvignon, I just have to trust what
they say. As I am not a grower I have little vineyard experience. In
the books (photos) and in reality they both look very similar to me.
Hence, marking the boxes with "cabernet" or "franc" does not solve my
problem!

I was not being facetious in my previous reply. I am sure that I could not
tell the difference myself -- even if I watched them being harvested at the
"vendage".
If you are an amateur( like me --spelling?) -- I could not tell the
difference but you are protected by the laws of the land!! ( especially in
Europe)
I would suspect that the vendors would not try and cheat you ( r u in Europe
or the Americas --- it might make a difference)

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
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> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Sorry, obviously I have not made myself clear. Let me elaborate
> further.
> I tend to buy a ton or two of freshly harvested grapes and use them for
> wine making. These get delivered to me in a small truck. However, I
> dont always trust the growers/sellers as to which variety they claim
> their grapes are. Obviously they want to get rid of their grapes ASAP
> and if they claim it is franc or sauvignon, I just have to trust what
> they say. As I am not a grower I have little vineyard experience. In
> the books (photos) and in reality they both look very similar to me.
> Hence, marking the boxes with "cabernet" or "franc" does not solve my
> problem!
>

Or you have to be there at the "vendage" with an expert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
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"pinky" > wrote in message
.uk...
>I was not being facetious in my previous reply. I am sure that I could not
>tell the difference myself -- even if I watched them being harvested at the
>"vendage".
> If you are an amateur( like me --spelling?) -- I could not tell the
> difference but you are protected by the laws of the land!! ( especially in
> Europe)
> I would suspect that the vendors would not try and cheat you ( r u in
> Europe or the Americas --- it might make a difference)
>
> --
> Trevor A Panther
> In South Yorkshire, England
> Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
> All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
> Anti Virus for your protection too!
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Sorry, obviously I have not made myself clear. Let me elaborate
>> further.
>> I tend to buy a ton or two of freshly harvested grapes and use them for
>> wine making. These get delivered to me in a small truck. However, I
>> dont always trust the growers/sellers as to which variety they claim
>> their grapes are. Obviously they want to get rid of their grapes ASAP
>> and if they claim it is franc or sauvignon, I just have to trust what
>> they say. As I am not a grower I have little vineyard experience. In
>> the books (photos) and in reality they both look very similar to me.
>> Hence, marking the boxes with "cabernet" or "franc" does not solve my
>> problem!
>>
>
>

Or you have to be there at the "vendage" with an expert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!
"pinky" > wrote in message
.uk...
>I was not being facetious in my previous reply. I am sure that I could not
>tell the difference myself -- even if I watched them being harvested at the
>"vendage".
> If you are an amateur( like me --spelling?) -- I could not tell the
> difference but you are protected by the laws of the land!! ( especially in
> Europe)
> I would suspect that the vendors would not try and cheat you ( r u in
> Europe or the Americas --- it might make a difference)
>
> --
> Trevor A Panther
> In South Yorkshire, England
> Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
> All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
> Anti Virus for your protection too!
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Sorry, obviously I have not made myself clear. Let me elaborate
>> further.
>> I tend to buy a ton or two of freshly harvested grapes and use them for
>> wine making. These get delivered to me in a small truck. However, I
>> dont always trust the growers/sellers as to which variety they claim
>> their grapes are. Obviously they want to get rid of their grapes ASAP
>> and if they claim it is franc or sauvignon, I just have to trust what
>> they say. As I am not a grower I have little vineyard experience. In
>> the books (photos) and in reality they both look very similar to me.
>> Hence, marking the boxes with "cabernet" or "franc" does not solve my
>> problem!
>>
>
>

In my vineyard they taste different. Also, my C. Sauvignon are more black
while C. Franc are reddish black and more uneven colored.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>I am having difficulties in recognizing these two grape varieties on
> their harvested appearance. Once in boxes they both look the same. Any
> tips on how to easily differentiate between them?
> Many thanks.
>

In my vineyard they taste different. Also, my C. Sauvignon are more black
while C. Franc are reddish black and more uneven colored.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>I am having difficulties in recognizing these two grape varieties on
> their harvested appearance. Once in boxes they both look the same. Any
> tips on how to easily differentiate between them?
> Many thanks.
>

wrote:

> I am having difficulties in recognizing these two grape varieties on
> their harvested appearance. Once in boxes they both look the same. Any
> tips on how to easily differentiate between them?
> Many thanks.

IF you are getting BOTH varieties and from the same area, you MIGHT be able
to tell the difference.

The Cabernet Sauvignon might have a smaller berry than the Cabernet Franc.

IF you are getting BOTH varieties, you probably will be able to tell the
difference after crush and during primary fermentation when you push down
the cap with your hands and feel the berries and squeeze them between your
fingers. The Cabernet Sauvignon has a thicker skin and does not juice out
as fast or easily as the Cabernet Franc.

Sooooo - IF you have both from the same area, you might be able to tell by
look and feel.

Of course, post fermentation IF you followed the same winemaking techniques
for both and IF you compared them side by side, you probably will be able
to tell the difference.

That being said, I would venture to guess that if you gave some wine
"experts" a glass of each and did not tell them which was which they would
be wrong half the time. A LOT has to do with where they are grown, how
much time they spend in primary fermentation, time in barrel and other wine
making techniques.

BTW, Cabernet Sauvignon has as its parents --- drum roll please --- CABERNET
FRANC and Sauvignon Blanc. Yes, Sauvignon Blanc is a white grape but the
red color is dominant.

I think the jest of this is that the are difficult to tell apart even for
the experts. At this point, you will probably never be absolutely sure you
got them right. It is also true that they are often blended. So why not
just mix them and serve them as a blend and pretend that you did this
intentionally as a result of the vast knowledge and experience you have
gained in making wine. You don't always have to wear your mistakes on your
sleeve!

Ray

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>I am having difficulties in recognizing these two grape varieties on
> their harvested appearance. Once in boxes they both look the same. Any
> tips on how to easily differentiate between them?
> Many thanks.
>
>

I am glad to see that there is a consensus regarding the difficulty in
recognition. I think I will have to just build on experience!
Thanks for all your input.

S.

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>I am glad to see that there is a consensus regarding the difficulty in
> recognition. I think I will have to just build on experience!
> Thanks for all your input.
>
> S.
>
In talking around, I have come to the conclusion that many times, when
commercial vineyards bottle their Merlot, and Cab. Sauv., etc., they are not
really sure what grapes went into the bottles. This is not because the mix
up their grapes but because they suspect that the vines are not what they
were sold to be. But then, the tasters are more effected by the name on the
bottle that the juice in the bottle anyway! ;o)

Ray

Ray Calvert wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>I am glad to see that there is a consensus regarding the difficulty in
>>recognition. I think I will have to just build on experience!
>>Thanks for all your input.
>>
>>S.
>>
>
> In talking around, I have come to the conclusion that many times, when
> commercial vineyards bottle their Merlot, and Cab. Sauv., etc., they are not
> really sure what grapes went into the bottles. This is not because the mix
> up their grapes but because they suspect that the vines are not what they
> were sold to be. But then, the tasters are more effected by the name on the
> bottle that the juice in the bottle anyway! ;o)
>
> Ray
>
>
Hi Ray

You said it! Too many of us too often will taste with our eyes rather
than our mouths and noses.

Regards

Frank

To be honest both are noble grapes and grapes tend to mutate anyway. I
bet you will make good wine from either. For whatever reason the Cab
Franc juice I get from Regina always has a higher TA than the Cab Sauv;
I always end up blending the Cab Franc into the Cab Sauv to bump the
acid up a bit. I know that doesn't answer your question on ID though.
Those juices are made from central valley grapes grown in hot areas.

Joe

To be honest both are noble grapes and grapes tend to mutate anyway. I
bet you will make good wine from either. For whatever reason the Cab
Franc juice I get from Regina always has a higher TA than the Cab Sauv;
I always end up blending the Cab Franc into the Cab Sauv to bump the
acid up a bit. I know that doesn't answer your question on ID though.
Those juices are made from central valley grapes grown in hot areas.

Joe

Joe Sallustio wrote:

> To be honest both are noble grapes and grapes tend to mutate anyway. I
> bet you will make good wine from either. For whatever reason the Cab
> Franc juice I get from Regina always has a higher TA than the Cab Sauv;
> I always end up blending the Cab Franc into the Cab Sauv to bump the
> acid up a bit. I know that doesn't answer your question on ID though.
> Those juices are made from central valley grapes grown in hot areas.
>
> Joe

My experience is that Cab Franc will precipitate a LOT more tartrate
crystals on the fermenters which seems to verify your experience.

"Frank Mirigliano" > wrote in message
...
> Ray Calvert wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >
> >>I am glad to see that there is a consensus regarding the difficulty in
> >>recognition. I think I will have to just build on experience!
> >>Thanks for all your input.
> >>
> >>S.
> >>
> >
> > In talking around, I have come to the conclusion that many times, when
> > commercial vineyards bottle their Merlot, and Cab. Sauv., etc., they are
not
> > really sure what grapes went into the bottles. This is not because the
mix
> > up their grapes but because they suspect that the vines are not what
they
> > were sold to be. But then, the tasters are more effected by the name on
the
> > bottle that the juice in the bottle anyway! ;o)
> >
> > Ray
> >
> >
> Hi Ray
>
> You said it! Too many of us too often will taste with our eyes rather
> than our mouths and noses.

I have small children and am educating them about artificially flavored
soda and ice cream. They are learning to taste w/o reading the label and
they are all amazed by what something tastes like if you don't know what it
is supposed to taste like!
Bob
--
--
The voice inside my head claims to be a psychiatrist.

>
> Regards
>
> Frank