Winemaking (rec.crafts.winemaking) Discussion of the process, recipes, tips, techniques and general exchange of lore on the process, methods and history of wine making. Includes traditional grape wines, sparkling wines & champagnes.

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
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Default Bentonite Haze

I'm making a sweet Orange Muscat from Brehm juice.

After starting the fermentation, I monitored the activity
until the wine achieved the taste (and brix level) I desired.
I then hit it with potassium metabisulfite, sorbate, and bentonite,
and moved the wine to my ice-cold garage. The wine clarified beautifully.
After a few weeks, I brought the wine back inside. To my horror, after
about two weeks, a haze has developed.

What to do? Patience? Gelatin counter-fining? Any suggestions appreciated.

--Lee
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William Frazier
 
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Lee - Did you rack off the sediment? Did you measure the sulfite content?
Are there any slow, tiny bubbles rising? I ask because you may have a
malo-lactic fermentation going on. I've had this happen in sulfited wine
before in my cellar. The ML bugs are floating around with yeast in the
cellar atmosphere and it's hard to prevent a spontaneous ML fermentation.
If you have the ability you might do a chromatography test to check for
lactic acid and check into Lysozyme...it can stop a ML in it's tracks.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

> wrote in message
...
> I'm making a sweet Orange Muscat from Brehm juice.
>
> After starting the fermentation, I monitored the activity
> until the wine achieved the taste (and brix level) I desired.
> I then hit it with potassium metabisulfite, sorbate, and bentonite,
> and moved the wine to my ice-cold garage. The wine clarified beautifully.
> After a few weeks, I brought the wine back inside. To my horror, after
> about two weeks, a haze has developed.
>
> What to do? Patience? Gelatin counter-fining? Any suggestions appreciated.
>
> --Lee



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William Frazier > wrote:
> Lee - Did you rack off the sediment? Did you measure the sulfite content?
> Are there any slow, tiny bubbles rising? I ask because you may have a
> malo-lactic fermentation going on. I've had this happen in sulfited wine
> before in my cellar. The ML bugs are floating around with yeast in the
> cellar atmosphere and it's hard to prevent a spontaneous ML fermentation.
> If you have the ability you might do a chromatography test to check for
> lactic acid and check into Lysozyme...it can stop a ML in it's tracks.
>


Bill,

No, I've not racked of the sediment. No activity that I can *see* (other
than the haze) but I'll do a chomatography test. Thanks for the suggestion.

--Lee
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pcw
 
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Lee .. I doubt it's ML ....SO2 will stop ML "in it's tracks"! But, as
Bill asked, did you check free SO2? ... and pH?

You might want to chill it back down in a hurry in case it's primary
that has restarted ... or else go dry and add back some sugar. What
exactly was your sorbate protocol?

Charlie

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pcw > wrote:
> Lee .. I doubt it's ML ....SO2 will stop ML "in it's tracks"! But, as
> Bill asked, did you check free SO2? ... and pH?
>


I did after you mentioned it. pH 3.60, SO2 20ppm. Seemed a tad on the low
side :-) so I added some potassium metabisulfite.

> You might want to chill it back down in a hurry in case it's primary
> that has restarted ... or else go dry and add back some sugar. What
> exactly was your sorbate protocol?
>


I added 5tsp of sorbate directy to the fermenting wine (~25 gallons) and
stirred. That seemed to settle things down in short order.

--Lee


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pcw > wrote:
> Lee .. I doubt it's ML ....SO2 will stop ML "in it's tracks"! But, as
> Bill asked, did you check free SO2? ... and pH?
>


I did after you mentioned it. pH 3.60, SO2 20ppm. Seemed a tad on the low
side :-) so I added some potassium metabisulfite.

> You might want to chill it back down in a hurry in case it's primary
> that has restarted ... or else go dry and add back some sugar. What
> exactly was your sorbate protocol?
>


I added 5tsp of sorbate directy to the fermenting wine (~25 gallons) and
stirred. That seemed to settle things down in short order.

--Lee
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Dydziaczek
 
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I've heard that the yeast (that may have survived the metabisulfite and
betonite) may be brought back to life by the rapid growth of the
temperature, so perhaps your wine slowly started to fermentate again. You
can try to use some more metabisulfite.

Jakub
Użytkownik > napisał w wiadomości
...
> I'm making a sweet Orange Muscat from Brehm juice.
>
> After starting the fermentation, I monitored the activity
> until the wine achieved the taste (and brix level) I desired.
> I then hit it with potassium metabisulfite, sorbate, and bentonite,
> and moved the wine to my ice-cold garage. The wine clarified beautifully.
> After a few weeks, I brought the wine back inside. To my horror, after
> about two weeks, a haze has developed.
>
> What to do? Patience? Gelatin counter-fining? Any suggestions appreciated.
>
> --Lee



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Dydziaczek
 
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Default

I've heard that the yeast (that may have survived the metabisulfite and
betonite) may be brought back to life by the rapid growth of the
temperature, so perhaps your wine slowly started to fermentate again. You
can try to use some more metabisulfite.

Jakub
Użytkownik > napisał w wiadomości
...
> I'm making a sweet Orange Muscat from Brehm juice.
>
> After starting the fermentation, I monitored the activity
> until the wine achieved the taste (and brix level) I desired.
> I then hit it with potassium metabisulfite, sorbate, and bentonite,
> and moved the wine to my ice-cold garage. The wine clarified beautifully.
> After a few weeks, I brought the wine back inside. To my horror, after
> about two weeks, a haze has developed.
>
> What to do? Patience? Gelatin counter-fining? Any suggestions appreciated.
>
> --Lee



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pcw
 
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Please note: .. SO2 "WILL NOT" arrest a primary fermentation!!!
Cold temp will slow it down .... VERY cold temp will bring it to a
virtual stop! But, you need to "separate" the yeast from the wine to
yield a sweet product, or else "off it goes" after the temp comes back
up. Nearly all wine yeast species are SO2 "tolerant" to a great
degree! Sorbate is a "brute force" method of stabilization. Sorbate
prevents yeast reproduction. You must use an external method
(chilling) to separate the wine from the yeast, in order for sorbate to
be very effective, and even if it does stabilize the wine's sweetness,
it contributes an undesireable flavor.

Long story short - making sweet wine is a bitch! It's been said many
times here .. for small batches, make it dry - add the sugar before
serving!! Otherwise ... get a REAL sterile filter ($$$) and learn to
use it!!!

As for SO2 amt ... 20 ppm free would give you 0.8ppm molecular at pH
3.2. At pH 3.6 you need 50ppm free to get the desired 0.8ppm
molecular . However, even the low level of SO2 you have would arrest
ML according to my experiece.

Charlie

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pcw > wrote:
> Please note: .. SO2 "WILL NOT" arrest a primary fermentation!!!
> Cold temp will slow it down .... VERY cold temp will bring it to a
> virtual stop! But, you need to "separate" the yeast from the wine to
> yield a sweet product, or else "off it goes" after the temp comes back
> up. Nearly all wine yeast species are SO2 "tolerant" to a great
> degree! Sorbate is a "brute force" method of stabilization. Sorbate
> prevents yeast reproduction. You must use an external method
> (chilling) to separate the wine from the yeast, in order for sorbate to
> be very effective, and even if it does stabilize the wine's sweetness,
> it contributes an undesireable flavor.
>


Does thirty days in a sub-freezing garage count?

>
> Long story short - making sweet wine is a bitch! It's been said many
> times here .. for small batches, make it dry - add the sugar before
> serving!! Otherwise ... get a REAL sterile filter ($$$) and learn to
> use it!!!
>


<prolonged sigh>


> As for SO2 amt ... 20 ppm free would give you 0.8ppm molecular at pH
> 3.2. At pH 3.6 you need 50ppm free to get the desired 0.8ppm
> molecular . However, even the low level of SO2 you have would arrest
> ML according to my experiece.
>


Yeah, I added some potassium metabisulfite.

>
> Charlie
>


Charlie, thanks for the info. At this point, I'm not sure what I'm
going to do. Will .2 micron filtration do the trick?

--Lee


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pcw > wrote:
> Please note: .. SO2 "WILL NOT" arrest a primary fermentation!!!
> Cold temp will slow it down .... VERY cold temp will bring it to a
> virtual stop! But, you need to "separate" the yeast from the wine to
> yield a sweet product, or else "off it goes" after the temp comes back
> up. Nearly all wine yeast species are SO2 "tolerant" to a great
> degree! Sorbate is a "brute force" method of stabilization. Sorbate
> prevents yeast reproduction. You must use an external method
> (chilling) to separate the wine from the yeast, in order for sorbate to
> be very effective, and even if it does stabilize the wine's sweetness,
> it contributes an undesireable flavor.
>


Does thirty days in a sub-freezing garage count?

>
> Long story short - making sweet wine is a bitch! It's been said many
> times here .. for small batches, make it dry - add the sugar before
> serving!! Otherwise ... get a REAL sterile filter ($$$) and learn to
> use it!!!
>


<prolonged sigh>


> As for SO2 amt ... 20 ppm free would give you 0.8ppm molecular at pH
> 3.2. At pH 3.6 you need 50ppm free to get the desired 0.8ppm
> molecular . However, even the low level of SO2 you have would arrest
> ML according to my experiece.
>


Yeah, I added some potassium metabisulfite.

>
> Charlie
>


Charlie, thanks for the info. At this point, I'm not sure what I'm
going to do. Will .2 micron filtration do the trick?

--Lee
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pcw
 
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Lee,

Believe me!! I "feel" your pain! I pronounce it "pinot gris" ...
which, I believe is Italian for "Damn!! this stuff is fermenting
again!!"

So .. 0.2 um will do the trick (0.45um will) .. if it IS 0.2um ...
"absolute"! Remember, the key to sterile filtration is "confidence" in
your pads and "sanitation"!!! It is no easy trick, IMHO!

But, I'm still puzzled. Did you re-chill the wine? Did it clear
again? It must be "crystal clear" before you run it thru a sterile
filter!

I don't use sorbate, so I don't know if you added enough to stun the
yeast. You didn't say what your SO2 went up to after your last
addition ... you have a high pH so you still might not have whacked the
ML bugs with SO2. I guess we still don't know what started up when you
raised the temp ... primary or MLF.

Charlie

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Joe Sallustio
 
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I would suspect primary if you see activity but you don't. That is a
whole lot of sorbate, it's twice what I would use. Are you sure it was
good? It only has a shelf life of about 1 year. I would not add it to
an active ferment, it will not kill active yeast. The yeast must be
removed first as stated previously.

I'm not sure that I like tight filtration. I really think it strips
flavor, although others disagree. Everything must be sterile,
corks, bottles and wine. That's hard to do. Why not rechill and rack
gently while cold and see what happens. I'm experimenting with using
honey as a sweetener, it's usually nutrient poor.

And Charlie, I always have issues with Pinot Gris too. It seems to be
the wine I put the most effort into for the least benefit. I'm pretty
sure it's a clone of Pinot Noir, which would explain a lot...
)

Joe

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pcw > wrote:
> Lee,
>
> Believe me!! I "feel" your pain! I pronounce it "pinot gris" ...
> which, I believe is Italian for "Damn!! this stuff is fermenting
> again!!"
>


Heh.

>
> So .. 0.2 um will do the trick (0.45um will) .. if it IS 0.2um ...
> "absolute"! Remember, the key to sterile filtration is "confidence" in
> your pads and "sanitation"!!! It is no easy trick, IMHO!
>


I've got one of those Presque Isle 10" stainless cylindrical filters.
The .2um filter I have is two-stage microfiberglass/polycarbonate job.
I'm thinking it will do the trick.

>
> But, I'm still puzzled. Did you re-chill the wine? Did it clear
> again? It must be "crystal clear" before you run it thru a sterile
> filter!
>


No, have not rechilled it.

>
> I don't use sorbate, so I don't know if you added enough to stun the
> yeast. You didn't say what your SO2 went up to after your last
> addition ... you have a high pH so you still might not have whacked the
> ML bugs with SO2. I guess we still don't know what started up when you
> raised the temp ... primary or MLF.
>


I added the sorbate to the primary fermentation. Like I said, that seemed
to quiet things down significantly. I've not checked the SO2 levels since
I made the addition on Sunday, but I expect the levels will be more acceptable.
I'll check that tonight.

I also ran a chomotography to check for ML activity. There *might* be something
going on in that regard, as there faint spots for both malic and lactic acids.
I suppose I can hit it with some lysozyme, just to be sure. On the other hand,
there appears to be *zero* activity that I can see - no bubbles, nothing.

I'm open to suggestions. Lysozyme addition? Coarse filtration followed by
sterile filtration? Re-chilling? Gelatin? All of the above?

--Lee
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pcw > wrote:
> Lee,
>
> Believe me!! I "feel" your pain! I pronounce it "pinot gris" ...
> which, I believe is Italian for "Damn!! this stuff is fermenting
> again!!"
>


Heh.

>
> So .. 0.2 um will do the trick (0.45um will) .. if it IS 0.2um ...
> "absolute"! Remember, the key to sterile filtration is "confidence" in
> your pads and "sanitation"!!! It is no easy trick, IMHO!
>


I've got one of those Presque Isle 10" stainless cylindrical filters.
The .2um filter I have is two-stage microfiberglass/polycarbonate job.
I'm thinking it will do the trick.

>
> But, I'm still puzzled. Did you re-chill the wine? Did it clear
> again? It must be "crystal clear" before you run it thru a sterile
> filter!
>


No, have not rechilled it.

>
> I don't use sorbate, so I don't know if you added enough to stun the
> yeast. You didn't say what your SO2 went up to after your last
> addition ... you have a high pH so you still might not have whacked the
> ML bugs with SO2. I guess we still don't know what started up when you
> raised the temp ... primary or MLF.
>


I added the sorbate to the primary fermentation. Like I said, that seemed
to quiet things down significantly. I've not checked the SO2 levels since
I made the addition on Sunday, but I expect the levels will be more acceptable.
I'll check that tonight.

I also ran a chomotography to check for ML activity. There *might* be something
going on in that regard, as there faint spots for both malic and lactic acids.
I suppose I can hit it with some lysozyme, just to be sure. On the other hand,
there appears to be *zero* activity that I can see - no bubbles, nothing.

I'm open to suggestions. Lysozyme addition? Coarse filtration followed by
sterile filtration? Re-chilling? Gelatin? All of the above?

--Lee


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Joe Sallustio
 
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Wait,that's not good. You do NOT want MLF in the presence of sorbate,
it's too late to go for MLF if you used sorbate in any amount. Your
wine will smell like geraniums. Lysosome encourages MLF from what I
read, not discourages it. I never use it so can't speak much to it's
benefits.

You have no activity so that is good. I would suggest you use at least
0.8 molecular for the free sulfite value at pH 3.6, it's 50 PPM. I
would chill and rack off the lees if it clears when cold, if it doesn't
counterfine, gelatin is more effective with a little shot of tannin
first as I recall, or you could use sparkleoid or isinglass.

Joe



>
> I also ran a chomotography to check for ML activity. There *might* be

something
> going on in that regard, as there faint spots for both malic and

lactic acids.
> I suppose I can hit it with some lysozyme, just to be sure. On the

other hand,
> there appears to be *zero* activity that I can see - no bubbles,

nothing.
>
> I'm open to suggestions. Lysozyme addition? Coarse filtration

followed by
> sterile filtration? Re-chilling? Gelatin? All of the above?
>
> --Lee


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Joe Sallustio
 
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Wait,that's not good. You do NOT want MLF in the presence of sorbate,
it's too late to go for MLF if you used sorbate in any amount. Your
wine will smell like geraniums. Lysosome encourages MLF from what I
read, not discourages it. I never use it so can't speak much to it's
benefits.

You have no activity so that is good. I would suggest you use at least
0.8 molecular for the free sulfite value at pH 3.6, it's 50 PPM. I
would chill and rack off the lees if it clears when cold, if it doesn't
counterfine, gelatin is more effective with a little shot of tannin
first as I recall, or you could use sparkleoid or isinglass.

Joe



>
> I also ran a chomotography to check for ML activity. There *might* be

something
> going on in that regard, as there faint spots for both malic and

lactic acids.
> I suppose I can hit it with some lysozyme, just to be sure. On the

other hand,
> there appears to be *zero* activity that I can see - no bubbles,

nothing.
>
> I'm open to suggestions. Lysozyme addition? Coarse filtration

followed by
> sterile filtration? Re-chilling? Gelatin? All of the above?
>
> --Lee


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Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> Wait,that's not good. You do NOT want MLF in the presence of sorbate,
> it's too late to go for MLF if you used sorbate in any amount. Your
> wine will smell like geraniums. Lysosome encourages MLF from what I
> read, not discourages it. I never use it so can't speak much to it's
> benefits.
>
> You have no activity so that is good. I would suggest you use at least
> 0.8 molecular for the free sulfite value at pH 3.6, it's 50 PPM. I
> would chill and rack off the lees if it clears when cold, if it doesn't
> counterfine, gelatin is more effective with a little shot of tannin
> first as I recall, or you could use sparkleoid or isinglass.
>
> Joe
>


Free SO2 is up around 100 now, a bit high, but not outrageously so.
Have moved the carboys back out to the garage to catch a chill.
We've got some temps in the teens coming, so I'll let it cool down
for a few days, then rack it cold and see what happens.

--Lee
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William Frazier
 
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Lee - If you have malic and lactic acid spots on your chromatography paper
you have a ML fermentation in process. In some of my wines that have a MLF
underway it's very difficult to see bubbles at first. The wines have just
been cloudy like you mention. As the temperature warms up and/or after the
bacteria have really increased in number ML fermentation is more apparent
with lots of bubbling.
>
> I'm open to suggestions. Lysozyme addition? Coarse filtration followed by
> sterile filtration? Re-chilling? Gelatin? All of the above?
>

I read here that sulfite will stop or prevent MLF. This may be so if the
sulfite is added before a MLF gets underway or if enough SO2 is added.
However, I've had MLF take place in some of my wines that I believed were
well protected with sulfite. Since I add ML culture to my red wines the
organisms are just floating around in my cellar and it's real hard to
prevent MLF in my white wines.

I had good success stopping MLF by adding Lysozyme at 200 to 500 ppm (at
least 0.75 grams per gallon) in cloudy wines that show malic and lactic acid
spots like you describe. The wines I've treated have become crystal clear
in a couple of days.

Once you get the MLF stopped and the wine clears your 0.2 micron Duofine
filter will render the wine sterile. But sterile operation is next to
impossible in typical basement operations. Everything downstream from the
filter has to be sterile...that's the big problem. But, proper SO2 levels,
K sorbate at 200 ppm and sterile filtration should be enough.

Check out PIWC, Scottlab or The Winelab for some info on Lysozyme. Good
luck.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA



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William Frazier > wrote:
> Lee - If you have malic and lactic acid spots on your chromatography paper
> you have a ML fermentation in process. In some of my wines that have a MLF
> underway it's very difficult to see bubbles at first. The wines have just
> been cloudy like you mention. As the temperature warms up and/or after the
> bacteria have really increased in number ML fermentation is more apparent
> with lots of bubbling.
>>
>> I'm open to suggestions. Lysozyme addition? Coarse filtration followed by
>> sterile filtration? Re-chilling? Gelatin? All of the above?
>>

> I read here that sulfite will stop or prevent MLF. This may be so if the
> sulfite is added before a MLF gets underway or if enough SO2 is added.
> However, I've had MLF take place in some of my wines that I believed were
> well protected with sulfite. Since I add ML culture to my red wines the
> organisms are just floating around in my cellar and it's real hard to
> prevent MLF in my white wines.
>
> I had good success stopping MLF by adding Lysozyme at 200 to 500 ppm (at
> least 0.75 grams per gallon) in cloudy wines that show malic and lactic acid
> spots like you describe. The wines I've treated have become crystal clear
> in a couple of days.
>
> Once you get the MLF stopped and the wine clears your 0.2 micron Duofine
> filter will render the wine sterile. But sterile operation is next to
> impossible in typical basement operations. Everything downstream from the
> filter has to be sterile...that's the big problem. But, proper SO2 levels,
> K sorbate at 200 ppm and sterile filtration should be enough.
>
> Check out PIWC, Scottlab or The Winelab for some info on Lysozyme. Good
> luck.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA
>


Thanks, Bill. I got some lysozyme from PI. May give that a shot...

--Lee


  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
pp
 
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Joe Sallustio wrote:
> Wait,that's not good. You do NOT want MLF in the presence of

sorbate,
> it's too late to go for MLF if you used sorbate in any amount. Your
> wine will smell like geraniums. Lysosome encourages MLF from what I
> read, not discourages it. I never use it so can't speak much to it's
> benefits.
>


Joe:

It's the opposite - lysozyme kills ML bacteria. Check out
http://www.scottlaboratories.com/pro...ialcontrol.asp

Pp

  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jerry DeAngelis
 
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Hi

If you use lysozyme, it binds with bentonite, and thus is inactivated by
it. I find there are fewer filtration problems if I use bentonite a
10-14 days after adding the lysozyme to my wines. Since lysozyme is not
removed by filtration, it is a good idea to deactivate it prior to
filtration.

The specifics of lysozyme use are in on the Scott site that Pp provided
above.

Regards

Jerry

> wrote in message
news:1109856186.353025@s0...
> William Frazier > wrote:
>> Lee - If you have malic and lactic acid spots on your chromatography
>> paper
>> you have a ML fermentation in process. In some of my wines that have
>> a MLF
>> underway it's very difficult to see bubbles at first. The wines have
>> just
>> been cloudy like you mention. As the temperature warms up and/or
>> after the
>> bacteria have really increased in number ML fermentation is more
>> apparent
>> with lots of bubbling.
>>>
>>> I'm open to suggestions. Lysozyme addition? Coarse filtration
>>> followed by
>>> sterile filtration? Re-chilling? Gelatin? All of the above?
>>>

>> I read here that sulfite will stop or prevent MLF. This may be so if
>> the
>> sulfite is added before a MLF gets underway or if enough SO2 is
>> added.
>> However, I've had MLF take place in some of my wines that I believed
>> were
>> well protected with sulfite. Since I add ML culture to my red wines
>> the
>> organisms are just floating around in my cellar and it's real hard to
>> prevent MLF in my white wines.
>>
>> I had good success stopping MLF by adding Lysozyme at 200 to 500 ppm
>> (at
>> least 0.75 grams per gallon) in cloudy wines that show malic and
>> lactic acid
>> spots like you describe. The wines I've treated have become crystal
>> clear
>> in a couple of days.
>>
>> Once you get the MLF stopped and the wine clears your 0.2 micron
>> Duofine
>> filter will render the wine sterile. But sterile operation is next
>> to
>> impossible in typical basement operations. Everything downstream
>> from the
>> filter has to be sterile...that's the big problem. But, proper SO2
>> levels,
>> K sorbate at 200 ppm and sterile filtration should be enough.
>>
>> Check out PIWC, Scottlab or The Winelab for some info on Lysozyme.
>> Good
>> luck.
>>
>> Bill Frazier
>> Olathe, Kansas USA
>>

>
> Thanks, Bill. I got some lysozyme from PI. May give that a shot...
>
> --Lee



  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Joe Sallustio
 
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Apologies to all on the misinformation.

This is a great link. I rarely encourage MLF since I work with mostly
low acid wines. Any idea what the shelf life is?

Joe

pp wrote:
> Joe Sallustio wrote:
> > Wait,that's not good. You do NOT want MLF in the presence of

> sorbate,
> > it's too late to go for MLF if you used sorbate in any amount.

Your
> > wine will smell like geraniums. Lysosome encourages MLF from what

I
> > read, not discourages it. I never use it so can't speak much to

it's
> > benefits.
> >

>
> Joe:
>
> It's the opposite - lysozyme kills ML bacteria. Check out
>

http://www.scottlaboratories.com/pro...ialcontrol.asp
>
> Pp


  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
William Frazier
 
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Joe - I have Lysozyme that I bought in 2002. It still worked this winter to
stop an unwanted MLF in this years Vidal. I store it tightly sealed at
cellar temperatures between 60 and 70F.
Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Apologies to all on the misinformation.
>
> This is a great link. I rarely encourage MLF since I work with mostly
> low acid wines. Any idea what the shelf life is?
>
> Joe
>



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William Frazier > wrote:
> Lee - If you have malic and lactic acid spots on your chromatography paper
> you have a ML fermentation in process. In some of my wines that have a MLF
> underway it's very difficult to see bubbles at first. The wines have just
> been cloudy like you mention. As the temperature warms up and/or after the
> bacteria have really increased in number ML fermentation is more apparent
> with lots of bubbling.
>>
>> I'm open to suggestions. Lysozyme addition? Coarse filtration followed by
>> sterile filtration? Re-chilling? Gelatin? All of the above?
>>

> I read here that sulfite will stop or prevent MLF. This may be so if the
> sulfite is added before a MLF gets underway or if enough SO2 is added.
> However, I've had MLF take place in some of my wines that I believed were
> well protected with sulfite. Since I add ML culture to my red wines the
> organisms are just floating around in my cellar and it's real hard to
> prevent MLF in my white wines.
>
> I had good success stopping MLF by adding Lysozyme at 200 to 500 ppm (at
> least 0.75 grams per gallon) in cloudy wines that show malic and lactic acid
> spots like you describe. The wines I've treated have become crystal clear
> in a couple of days.
>
> Once you get the MLF stopped and the wine clears your 0.2 micron Duofine
> filter will render the wine sterile. But sterile operation is next to
> impossible in typical basement operations. Everything downstream from the
> filter has to be sterile...that's the big problem. But, proper SO2 levels,
> K sorbate at 200 ppm and sterile filtration should be enough.
>
> Check out PIWC, Scottlab or The Winelab for some info on Lysozyme. Good
> luck.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA
>


I added 100ml of 5% lysozyme solution to each carboy today, which (if I calculated
this correctly) should give 200ppm. I was *very* careful to stir gently so as not
to disturb any of the lees. Cross your fingers. Except for the haze, its already
a very tasty wine.

--Lee


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pcw
 
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Hi Lee .... Well, the suspense is killing me!! Have you determined if
your haze was from primary restarting, MLF, or something else?? Your
situation is "similar" to that in another thread here "bubbling after
fining", by another "Lee" (not you I assume) who is just seeing bubbles
and it appears it is dissolved CO2.

I hope you can get your wine clear again with a minimal amount of
"doctoring" ... I always hesitate to just "throw stuff" into a wine to
try and fix something because I beleive it does really lower the
quality of the end product a bit .. no quantifiable evidence tho, sorry
:^|

Anyway, I hope you get it clarified because it sounds like you were
really happy with it before this all started!!!

Charlie

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pcw > wrote:
> Hi Lee .... Well, the suspense is killing me!! Have you determined if
> your haze was from primary restarting, MLF, or something else?? Your
> situation is "similar" to that in another thread here "bubbling after
> fining", by another "Lee" (not you I assume) who is just seeing bubbles
> and it appears it is dissolved CO2.
>


Nope, that's the Evil Lee :-)

>
> I hope you can get your wine clear again with a minimal amount of
> "doctoring" ... I always hesitate to just "throw stuff" into a wine to
> try and fix something because I beleive it does really lower the
> quality of the end product a bit .. no quantifiable evidence tho, sorry
> :^|
>
> Anyway, I hope you get it clarified because it sounds like you were
> really happy with it before this all started!!!
>
> Charlie
>


Charlie,

The lysozyme appears to be doing the trick. I added it on Sunday, and peeked
at the carboys last night. They are *noticably* clearer.

Just to clarify (pun intended!) the lessons here - is there an advantage to
adding lysozyme to wines that are intended to be sweet? I am assuming said
addition is exclusively for suppression of ML? Are there other benefits?
Are there situations where you would add lysozyme to a dry wine?
When is the best time to make said additions? I'm guessing my late addition
here (as a correction) was not optimal?

--Lee
P.S. Bill, thanks for the original suggestion.
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