Wine vinegar problem - thick mother on top and offensive smell
 

A couple of years ago I started using left over wine for making vinegar. I
have had good results until a few months ago. One of the jars developed a
thick (3/8 inch) gelatinous layer on the top of the vinegar. I thought that
must be the
"mother". It didn't smell good, but I thought it was only the mother that I
was smelling and the vinegar would still be fine. I've added wine and
additional mothers have formed in different layers. In other words, the
mothers have stratified within the vinegar with vinegar between the lower
layers.

Besides smelling offensive, the vinegar isn't good. I'm throwing it out,
but I would like to know what happened. Some of the information I have read
on making vinegar describes the mother as what I have. When the vinegars
were good, there was no evidence of this jelly like cap on the top of the
vinegar.

Apparently a bacteria started growing that wasn't desirable, but it formed
the characteristic mother. I had the vinegar stored in a cupboard in the
kitchen. I had cheesecloth over the top of the jar. I am wondering if the
temperature may have been too high and the undesirable bacteria liked it
better than the aceto-bacter aceti. The temperature is kept around 70
degrees F.

Any ideas on what went wrong and how I can prevent it from happening again?

Fred

--
Remove _nail to reply

Hello Fred
Glad to see someone else that appreciates vinegar!
My latest batch of vinegar also has a thick grayish pink fuzzy (appears dry)
layer on top and smells very rough (reminds me of parmesan cheese) very
little vinegar aroma.
I guess it went bad probably due to anaerobic reactions. I don't believe I
provided enough oxygen to it. I have heard of some people actually using an
air pump in the vinegar fermentation to ensure a constant source of air.
I wonder if an oak barrel would provide a generous supply of air. I don't
know how you would keep the oak barrel from getting contaminated over time.
Hope others will comment on this topic.
Sarge

"Fred C. Young" > wrote in message
news:eF%ud.488239$wV.437806@attbi_s54...
> A couple of years ago I started using left over wine for making vinegar.
I
> have had good results until a few months ago. One of the jars developed a
> thick (3/8 inch) gelatinous layer on the top of the vinegar. I thought
that
> must be the
> "mother". It didn't smell good, but I thought it was only the mother that
I
> was smelling and the vinegar would still be fine. I've added wine and
> additional mothers have formed in different layers. In other words, the
> mothers have stratified within the vinegar with vinegar between the lower
> layers.
>
> Besides smelling offensive, the vinegar isn't good. I'm throwing it out,
> but I would like to know what happened. Some of the information I have
read
> on making vinegar describes the mother as what I have. When the vinegars
> were good, there was no evidence of this jelly like cap on the top of the
> vinegar.
>
> Apparently a bacteria started growing that wasn't desirable, but it formed
> the characteristic mother. I had the vinegar stored in a cupboard in the
> kitchen. I had cheesecloth over the top of the jar. I am wondering if
the
> temperature may have been too high and the undesirable bacteria liked it
> better than the aceto-bacter aceti. The temperature is kept around 70
> degrees F.
>
> Any ideas on what went wrong and how I can prevent it from happening
again?
>
> Fred
>
> --
> Remove _nail to reply
>
>

Hello Fred
Glad to see someone else that appreciates vinegar!
My latest batch of vinegar also has a thick grayish pink fuzzy (appears dry)
layer on top and smells very rough (reminds me of parmesan cheese) very
little vinegar aroma.
I guess it went bad probably due to anaerobic reactions. I don't believe I
provided enough oxygen to it. I have heard of some people actually using an
air pump in the vinegar fermentation to ensure a constant source of air.
I wonder if an oak barrel would provide a generous supply of air. I don't
know how you would keep the oak barrel from getting contaminated over time.
Hope others will comment on this topic.
Sarge

"Fred C. Young" > wrote in message
news:eF%ud.488239$wV.437806@attbi_s54...
> A couple of years ago I started using left over wine for making vinegar.
I
> have had good results until a few months ago. One of the jars developed a
> thick (3/8 inch) gelatinous layer on the top of the vinegar. I thought
that
> must be the
> "mother". It didn't smell good, but I thought it was only the mother that
I
> was smelling and the vinegar would still be fine. I've added wine and
> additional mothers have formed in different layers. In other words, the
> mothers have stratified within the vinegar with vinegar between the lower
> layers.
>
> Besides smelling offensive, the vinegar isn't good. I'm throwing it out,
> but I would like to know what happened. Some of the information I have
read
> on making vinegar describes the mother as what I have. When the vinegars
> were good, there was no evidence of this jelly like cap on the top of the
> vinegar.
>
> Apparently a bacteria started growing that wasn't desirable, but it formed
> the characteristic mother. I had the vinegar stored in a cupboard in the
> kitchen. I had cheesecloth over the top of the jar. I am wondering if
the
> temperature may have been too high and the undesirable bacteria liked it
> better than the aceto-bacter aceti. The temperature is kept around 70
> degrees F.
>
> Any ideas on what went wrong and how I can prevent it from happening
again?
>
> Fred
>
> --
> Remove _nail to reply
>
>

Sarge wrote:
> Hello Fred
> Glad to see someone else that appreciates vinegar!
> My latest batch of vinegar also has a thick grayish pink fuzzy (appears dry)
> layer on top and smells very rough (reminds me of parmesan cheese) very
> little vinegar aroma.
> I guess it went bad probably due to anaerobic reactions. I don't believe I
> provided enough oxygen to it. I have heard of some people actually using an
> air pump in the vinegar fermentation to ensure a constant source of air.
> I wonder if an oak barrel would provide a generous supply of air. I don't
> know how you would keep the oak barrel from getting contaminated over time.
> Hope others will comment on this topic.
> Sarge
>
> "Fred C. Young" > wrote in message
> news:eF%ud.488239$wV.437806@attbi_s54...
>
>>A couple of years ago I started using left over wine for making vinegar.
>
> I
>
>>have had good results until a few months ago. One of the jars developed a
>>thick (3/8 inch) gelatinous layer on the top of the vinegar. I thought
>
> that
>
>>must be the
>>"mother". It didn't smell good, but I thought it was only the mother that
>
> I
>
>>was smelling and the vinegar would still be fine. I've added wine and
>>additional mothers have formed in different layers. In other words, the
>>mothers have stratified within the vinegar with vinegar between the lower
>>layers.
>>
>>Besides smelling offensive, the vinegar isn't good. I'm throwing it out,
>>but I would like to know what happened. Some of the information I have
>
> read
>
>>on making vinegar describes the mother as what I have. When the vinegars
>>were good, there was no evidence of this jelly like cap on the top of the
>>vinegar.
>>
>>Apparently a bacteria started growing that wasn't desirable, but it formed
>>the characteristic mother. I had the vinegar stored in a cupboard in the
>>kitchen. I had cheesecloth over the top of the jar. I am wondering if
>
> the
>
>>temperature may have been too high and the undesirable bacteria liked it
>>better than the aceto-bacter aceti. The temperature is kept around 70
>>degrees F.
>>
>>Any ideas on what went wrong and how I can prevent it from happening
>
> again?
>
>>Fred
>>
>>--
>>Remove _nail to reply
>>
>>
>
>
>
I'm interested in using the leftovers from bottling to make vinegar. Any
websites you can recommend and advice?

"Sarge" > wrote in message
.. .
> Hello Fred
> Glad to see someone else that appreciates vinegar!
> My latest batch of vinegar also has a thick grayish pink fuzzy (appears
dry)
> layer on top and smells very rough (reminds me of parmesan cheese) very
> little vinegar aroma.
> I guess it went bad probably due to anaerobic reactions. I don't believe
I
> provided enough oxygen to it. I have heard of some people actually using
an
> air pump in the vinegar fermentation to ensure a constant source of air.
> I wonder if an oak barrel would provide a generous supply of air. I
don't
> know how you would keep the oak barrel from getting contaminated over
time.
> Hope others will comment on this topic.
> Sarge

Hello Sarge,

I don't think you need much oxygen. It may speed up the process to have
more oxygen or to stir the wine in the presence of oxygen, but I have had
bottles of wine turn to vinegar that were corked for a couple of months.
They had been opened and weren't great wine, so they were corked and set
aside in the cellar. Some of them were spoiled, but some were good vinegar
in a couple of months.

I have noticed that some of the commercial balsamic vinegars say that SO2
was added as a preservative, so those can not be used as a starter. You can
buy starters from wine making supply houses.

Fred

"Sarge" > wrote in message
.. .
> Hello Fred
> Glad to see someone else that appreciates vinegar!
> My latest batch of vinegar also has a thick grayish pink fuzzy (appears
dry)
> layer on top and smells very rough (reminds me of parmesan cheese) very
> little vinegar aroma.
> I guess it went bad probably due to anaerobic reactions. I don't believe
I
> provided enough oxygen to it. I have heard of some people actually using
an
> air pump in the vinegar fermentation to ensure a constant source of air.
> I wonder if an oak barrel would provide a generous supply of air. I
don't
> know how you would keep the oak barrel from getting contaminated over
time.
> Hope others will comment on this topic.
> Sarge

Hello Sarge,

I don't think you need much oxygen. It may speed up the process to have
more oxygen or to stir the wine in the presence of oxygen, but I have had
bottles of wine turn to vinegar that were corked for a couple of months.
They had been opened and weren't great wine, so they were corked and set
aside in the cellar. Some of them were spoiled, but some were good vinegar
in a couple of months.

I have noticed that some of the commercial balsamic vinegars say that SO2
was added as a preservative, so those can not be used as a starter. You can
buy starters from wine making supply houses.

Fred

May be a stupid question - but what do you make these rather expensive
vinegars for? Salad dressings? Please don't flame me, I am just curious.
Could be something I'd use if the wine went bad - although I do enjoy my
wines greatly!

KD


"Fred C. Young" > wrote in message
news:eF%ud.488239$wV.437806@attbi_s54...
>A couple of years ago I started using left over wine for making vinegar. I
> have had good results until a few months ago. One of the jars developed a
> thick (3/8 inch) gelatinous layer on the top of the vinegar. I thought
> that
> must be the
> "mother". It didn't smell good, but I thought it was only the mother that
> I
> was smelling and the vinegar would still be fine. I've added wine and
> additional mothers have formed in different layers. In other words, the
> mothers have stratified within the vinegar with vinegar between the lower
> layers.
>
> Besides smelling offensive, the vinegar isn't good. I'm throwing it out,
> but I would like to know what happened. Some of the information I have
> read
> on making vinegar describes the mother as what I have. When the vinegars
> were good, there was no evidence of this jelly like cap on the top of the
> vinegar.
>
> Apparently a bacteria started growing that wasn't desirable, but it formed
> the characteristic mother. I had the vinegar stored in a cupboard in the
> kitchen. I had cheesecloth over the top of the jar. I am wondering if
> the
> temperature may have been too high and the undesirable bacteria liked it
> better than the aceto-bacter aceti. The temperature is kept around 70
> degrees F.
>
> Any ideas on what went wrong and how I can prevent it from happening
> again?
>
> Fred
>
> --
> Remove _nail to reply
>
>

May be a stupid question - but what do you make these rather expensive
vinegars for? Salad dressings? Please don't flame me, I am just curious.
Could be something I'd use if the wine went bad - although I do enjoy my
wines greatly!

KD


"Fred C. Young" > wrote in message
news:eF%ud.488239$wV.437806@attbi_s54...
>A couple of years ago I started using left over wine for making vinegar. I
> have had good results until a few months ago. One of the jars developed a
> thick (3/8 inch) gelatinous layer on the top of the vinegar. I thought
> that
> must be the
> "mother". It didn't smell good, but I thought it was only the mother that
> I
> was smelling and the vinegar would still be fine. I've added wine and
> additional mothers have formed in different layers. In other words, the
> mothers have stratified within the vinegar with vinegar between the lower
> layers.
>
> Besides smelling offensive, the vinegar isn't good. I'm throwing it out,
> but I would like to know what happened. Some of the information I have
> read
> on making vinegar describes the mother as what I have. When the vinegars
> were good, there was no evidence of this jelly like cap on the top of the
> vinegar.
>
> Apparently a bacteria started growing that wasn't desirable, but it formed
> the characteristic mother. I had the vinegar stored in a cupboard in the
> kitchen. I had cheesecloth over the top of the jar. I am wondering if
> the
> temperature may have been too high and the undesirable bacteria liked it
> better than the aceto-bacter aceti. The temperature is kept around 70
> degrees F.
>
> Any ideas on what went wrong and how I can prevent it from happening
> again?
>
> Fred
>
> --
> Remove _nail to reply
>
>

"Fred C. Young" > wrote in message
news:z4Lwd.212180$V41.196133@attbi_s52...
> I used to wonder why anyone would pay $5
> US for a small bottle of vinegar made from wine. I didn't know that high
> quality balsamic vinegar could sell for 20 times that.

REAL balsamic vinegar isn't made from wine; it's made directly from grape
juice and aged for many years in small casks of various types of wood. The
stuff has a syrup like consistency and is _very_ intensely flavored. A few
drops is all you usually need.

The stuff you see in the store for ~$4/bottle isn't real balsamic vinegar.
It _tastes_ pretty good though, and I use it all the time in salad dressing.
I suspect that it's made from wine vinegar by adding stuff to it (caramel
coloring, wood extract, sugar) to make it resemble balsamic.

Tom S

"Fred C. Young" > wrote in message
news:z4Lwd.212180$V41.196133@attbi_s52...
> I used to wonder why anyone would pay $5
> US for a small bottle of vinegar made from wine. I didn't know that high
> quality balsamic vinegar could sell for 20 times that.

REAL balsamic vinegar isn't made from wine; it's made directly from grape
juice and aged for many years in small casks of various types of wood. The
stuff has a syrup like consistency and is _very_ intensely flavored. A few
drops is all you usually need.

The stuff you see in the store for ~$4/bottle isn't real balsamic vinegar.
It _tastes_ pretty good though, and I use it all the time in salad dressing.
I suspect that it's made from wine vinegar by adding stuff to it (caramel
coloring, wood extract, sugar) to make it resemble balsamic.

Tom S

"Tom S" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Fred C. Young" > wrote in message
> news:z4Lwd.212180$V41.196133@attbi_s52...
> > I used to wonder why anyone would pay $5
> > US for a small bottle of vinegar made from wine. I didn't know that
high
> > quality balsamic vinegar could sell for 20 times that.
>
> REAL balsamic vinegar isn't made from wine; it's made directly from grape
> juice and aged for many years in small casks of various types of wood.
The
> stuff has a syrup like consistency and is _very_ intensely flavored. A
few
> drops is all you usually need.
>
> The stuff you see in the store for ~$4/bottle isn't real balsamic vinegar.
> It _tastes_ pretty good though, and I use it all the time in salad
dressing.
> I suspect that it's made from wine vinegar by adding stuff to it (caramel
> coloring, wood extract, sugar) to make it resemble balsamic.
>
> Tom S

Hello Tom,

The aceto bacter bacteria changes alcohol to acetic acid. Grape juice must
be fermented to produce alcohol before the bacteria can produce the acetic
acid.

The cheap balsamic vinegar, like Roland, is real, but it is done at a higher
production rate and of course it doesn't have the quality of vinegar that is
aged for 25 years in barrels.

Fred

"Tom S" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Fred C. Young" > wrote in message
> news:z4Lwd.212180$V41.196133@attbi_s52...
> > I used to wonder why anyone would pay $5
> > US for a small bottle of vinegar made from wine. I didn't know that
high
> > quality balsamic vinegar could sell for 20 times that.
>
> REAL balsamic vinegar isn't made from wine; it's made directly from grape
> juice and aged for many years in small casks of various types of wood.
The
> stuff has a syrup like consistency and is _very_ intensely flavored. A
few
> drops is all you usually need.
>
> The stuff you see in the store for ~$4/bottle isn't real balsamic vinegar.
> It _tastes_ pretty good though, and I use it all the time in salad
dressing.
> I suspect that it's made from wine vinegar by adding stuff to it (caramel
> coloring, wood extract, sugar) to make it resemble balsamic.
>
> Tom S

Hello Tom,

The aceto bacter bacteria changes alcohol to acetic acid. Grape juice must
be fermented to produce alcohol before the bacteria can produce the acetic
acid.

The cheap balsamic vinegar, like Roland, is real, but it is done at a higher
production rate and of course it doesn't have the quality of vinegar that is
aged for 25 years in barrels.

Fred