Not sure about racking
 

Hello,

I have just posted a message to rec.crafts.meadmaking about racking a mead
that has been fermenting a while and it has made me realise that I am unsure
about racking in general. As a rule of thumb, how often do people here rack
their wines both during long fermentations and after fermentation?

Probably a stupid question but I am still learning (and you guys have taught
me a lot so far!)

R-D-C wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have just posted a message to rec.crafts.meadmaking about racking a mead
> that has been fermenting a while and it has made me realise that I am unsure
> about racking in general. As a rule of thumb, how often do people here rack
> their wines both during long fermentations and after fermentation?
>
> Probably a stupid question but I am still learning (and you guys have taught
> me a lot so far!)
>
>

Hi R-D-C

The reason for racking is to eliminate sediment. Sediment is, early on,
parts of grapes, yeast, and material other than grapes. Later in the
process there are other compounds that will drop out including potassium
bitartrate that will precipitate when you cold stabilize. Basically you
want to rack as little as possible so as to not expose your wine or mead
to oxygen but enough to get rid of all the other stuff so your product
is clear. I generally rack three times: First a couple of days after
pressing the grapes to get the wine off the gross lees, second time
after cold stabilisation, and a third time prior to bottling. This year
if the whites that are clear enough after the second racking I will try
bottling from the container rather than rack then bottle so as to avoid
oxidation.

No question is stupid. Many answers are.

Regards

Frank

R-D-C wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have just posted a message to rec.crafts.meadmaking about racking a mead
> that has been fermenting a while and it has made me realise that I am unsure
> about racking in general. As a rule of thumb, how often do people here rack
> their wines both during long fermentations and after fermentation?
>
> Probably a stupid question but I am still learning (and you guys have taught
> me a lot so far!)
>
>

Hi R-D-C

The reason for racking is to eliminate sediment. Sediment is, early on,
parts of grapes, yeast, and material other than grapes. Later in the
process there are other compounds that will drop out including potassium
bitartrate that will precipitate when you cold stabilize. Basically you
want to rack as little as possible so as to not expose your wine or mead
to oxygen but enough to get rid of all the other stuff so your product
is clear. I generally rack three times: First a couple of days after
pressing the grapes to get the wine off the gross lees, second time
after cold stabilisation, and a third time prior to bottling. This year
if the whites that are clear enough after the second racking I will try
bottling from the container rather than rack then bottle so as to avoid
oxidation.

No question is stupid. Many answers are.

Regards

Frank

"R-D-C" > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> I have just posted a message to rec.crafts.meadmaking about racking a mead
> that has been fermenting a while and it has made me realise that I am
> unsure about racking in general. As a rule of thumb, how often do people
> here rack their wines both during long fermentations and after
> fermentation?
>
> Probably a stupid question but I am still learning

Not a stupid question, but it depends a lot on your winemaking style and
whether or not it is a red wine.

As far as meads, cysers, country and kit wines go I have no advice to offer.
I don't make any of them.

For red wines I find it best to press the wine into a tank and let it settle
at least a couple of hours, then rack into barrel - leaving behind all the
heavy lees, which can be further settled to reclaim more wine. The idea is
to quarrantine the lees fraction until you can give it a clean bill of
health, because that's where H2S problems often arise.

For big, barrel fermented whites I don't rack at all until just before
bottling. I get the juice from the press as well clarified as possible,
rack that into barrels and ferment dry with concurrent ML. I stir the lees
every few days as the wine approaches dryness and until ML is finished, then
maybe every six or eight weeks after sulfiting, topping and bunging tight.
When it's getting close to bottling time I let the wine settle for a couple
of months before racking to a tank for fining and cold stabilization.

If I were doing a crisp, fruity, non-ML white I'd rack as soon as the
primary is finished, and probably again in a couple of months after the wine
has settled pretty clear.

Tom S

"R-D-C" > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> I have just posted a message to rec.crafts.meadmaking about racking a mead
> that has been fermenting a while and it has made me realise that I am
> unsure about racking in general. As a rule of thumb, how often do people
> here rack their wines both during long fermentations and after
> fermentation?
>
> Probably a stupid question but I am still learning

Not a stupid question, but it depends a lot on your winemaking style and
whether or not it is a red wine.

As far as meads, cysers, country and kit wines go I have no advice to offer.
I don't make any of them.

For red wines I find it best to press the wine into a tank and let it settle
at least a couple of hours, then rack into barrel - leaving behind all the
heavy lees, which can be further settled to reclaim more wine. The idea is
to quarrantine the lees fraction until you can give it a clean bill of
health, because that's where H2S problems often arise.

For big, barrel fermented whites I don't rack at all until just before
bottling. I get the juice from the press as well clarified as possible,
rack that into barrels and ferment dry with concurrent ML. I stir the lees
every few days as the wine approaches dryness and until ML is finished, then
maybe every six or eight weeks after sulfiting, topping and bunging tight.
When it's getting close to bottling time I let the wine settle for a couple
of months before racking to a tank for fining and cold stabilization.

If I were doing a crisp, fruity, non-ML white I'd rack as soon as the
primary is finished, and probably again in a couple of months after the wine
has settled pretty clear.

Tom S

R-D-C wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have just posted a message to rec.crafts.meadmaking about racking a mead
> that has been fermenting a while and it has made me realise that I am unsure
> about racking in general. As a rule of thumb, how often do people here rack
> their wines both during long fermentations and after fermentation?
>
> Probably a stupid question but I am still learning (and you guys have taught
> me a lot so far!)
>
>
I only do country wines, so not sure about grape wines (see Tom's post).
I generally do my first racking about 2 months after transferring from
the must bucket, without any stirring of the lees. After that every 2-3
months, gently stirring every couple of weeks until sediment stops
dropping. Then I tend to finish it and leave it until bottling.

As the others point out, you rack your wine to get it off the sediment and
to help it clear (although my limited understanding of kit wines and grape
wines, is that sometimes the sediment is good). The more sediment which
drops out, the clearer your wine should get over time. I make basically
fruit, veggie, and herb wines - I rack depending on the wine. Since I
usually bottle when the wine is 7 months old, that means I might rack 2-4
times during that period, but it depends on how much sediment is dropping
out; 3 is the average, 5 is the extreme. I had an oregano wine, which was
so clear & with so little sediment, that it was unbelievable - so I didn't
rack it as much.
Darlene
Wisconsin

"alien" > wrote in message
...
> R-D-C wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have just posted a message to rec.crafts.meadmaking about racking a
>> mead that has been fermenting a while and it has made me realise that I
>> am unsure about racking in general. As a rule of thumb, how often do
>> people here rack their wines both during long fermentations and after
>> fermentation?
>>
>> Probably a stupid question but I am still learning (and you guys have
>> taught me a lot so far!)
> I only do country wines, so not sure about grape wines (see Tom's post). I
> generally do my first racking about 2 months after transferring from the
> must bucket, without any stirring of the lees. After that every 2-3
> months, gently stirring every couple of weeks until sediment stops
> dropping. Then I tend to finish it and leave it until bottling.

What do you do when aging a wine? I was under the impression that after it
was completely clear it was still a good idea to leave it in the demijohn
for a period. Would you just leave it alone for that period; would you need
to add further campden tablets?

"Dar V" > wrote in message
...
> As the others point out, you rack your wine to get it off the sediment and
> to help it clear (although my limited understanding of kit wines and grape
> wines, is that sometimes the sediment is good). The more sediment which
> drops out, the clearer your wine should get over time. I make basically
> fruit, veggie, and herb wines - I rack depending on the wine. Since I
> usually bottle when the wine is 7 months old, that means I might rack 2-4
> times during that period, but it depends on how much sediment is dropping
> out; 3 is the average, 5 is the extreme. I had an oregano wine, which was
> so clear & with so little sediment, that it was unbelievable - so I didn't
> rack it as much.
> Darlene
> Wisconsin
>
> "alien" > wrote in message
> ...
>> R-D-C wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I have just posted a message to rec.crafts.meadmaking about racking a
>>> mead that has been fermenting a while and it has made me realise that I
>>> am unsure about racking in general. As a rule of thumb, how often do
>>> people here rack their wines both during long fermentations and after
>>> fermentation?
>>>
>>> Probably a stupid question but I am still learning (and you guys have
>>> taught me a lot so far!)
>> I only do country wines, so not sure about grape wines (see Tom's post).
>> I generally do my first racking about 2 months after transferring from
>> the must bucket, without any stirring of the lees. After that every 2-3
>> months, gently stirring every couple of weeks until sediment stops
>> dropping. Then I tend to finish it and leave it until bottling.
>
>

This is only my 4th year making wine, so I'm still working on building up my
wine cellar. Depending on the wine, some would think 7 months of bulk aging
is too young to bottle, but I will age longer once I have enough wine set
aside. Bulk aging and bottle aging are both part of aging a wine. Bulk
aging is just storing your wine in the demijohn, making sure the wine is
topped up, sulfited with campden tablets, and that you have enough water in
your airlock so no nasties get in there. Once you bottle, there can be
additional aging done, by just leaving the bottles in a dark cool place and
NOT drinking it. That's the hard part.... Do you know about Jack Kellers's
homemade wine site?
Darlene

"R-D-C" > wrote in message
...
> What do you do when aging a wine? I was under the impression that after
> it was completely clear it was still a good idea to leave it in the
> demijohn for a period. Would you just leave it alone for that period;
> would you need to add further campden tablets?
>
> "Dar V" > wrote in message
> ...
>> As the others point out, you rack your wine to get it off the sediment
>> and to help it clear (although my limited understanding of kit wines and
>> grape wines, is that sometimes the sediment is good). The more sediment
>> which drops out, the clearer your wine should get over time. I make
>> basically fruit, veggie, and herb wines - I rack depending on the wine.
>> Since I usually bottle when the wine is 7 months old, that means I might
>> rack 2-4 times during that period, but it depends on how much sediment is
>> dropping out; 3 is the average, 5 is the extreme. I had an oregano wine,
>> which was so clear & with so little sediment, that it was unbelievable -
>> so I didn't rack it as much.
>> Darlene
>> Wisconsin
>>
>> "alien" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> R-D-C wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> I have just posted a message to rec.crafts.meadmaking about racking a
>>>> mead that has been fermenting a while and it has made me realise that I
>>>> am unsure about racking in general. As a rule of thumb, how often do
>>>> people here rack their wines both during long fermentations and after
>>>> fermentation?
>>>>
>>>> Probably a stupid question but I am still learning (and you guys have
>>>> taught me a lot so far!)
>>> I only do country wines, so not sure about grape wines (see Tom's post).
>>> I generally do my first racking about 2 months after transferring from
>>> the must bucket, without any stirring of the lees. After that every 2-3
>>> months, gently stirring every couple of weeks until sediment stops
>>> dropping. Then I tend to finish it and leave it until bottling.
>>
>>
>
>

This is only my 4th year making wine, so I'm still working on building up my
wine cellar. Depending on the wine, some would think 7 months of bulk aging
is too young to bottle, but I will age longer once I have enough wine set
aside. Bulk aging and bottle aging are both part of aging a wine. Bulk
aging is just storing your wine in the demijohn, making sure the wine is
topped up, sulfited with campden tablets, and that you have enough water in
your airlock so no nasties get in there. Once you bottle, there can be
additional aging done, by just leaving the bottles in a dark cool place and
NOT drinking it. That's the hard part.... Do you know about Jack Kellers's
homemade wine site?
Darlene

"R-D-C" > wrote in message
...
> What do you do when aging a wine? I was under the impression that after
> it was completely clear it was still a good idea to leave it in the
> demijohn for a period. Would you just leave it alone for that period;
> would you need to add further campden tablets?
>
> "Dar V" > wrote in message
> ...
>> As the others point out, you rack your wine to get it off the sediment
>> and to help it clear (although my limited understanding of kit wines and
>> grape wines, is that sometimes the sediment is good). The more sediment
>> which drops out, the clearer your wine should get over time. I make
>> basically fruit, veggie, and herb wines - I rack depending on the wine.
>> Since I usually bottle when the wine is 7 months old, that means I might
>> rack 2-4 times during that period, but it depends on how much sediment is
>> dropping out; 3 is the average, 5 is the extreme. I had an oregano wine,
>> which was so clear & with so little sediment, that it was unbelievable -
>> so I didn't rack it as much.
>> Darlene
>> Wisconsin
>>
>> "alien" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> R-D-C wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> I have just posted a message to rec.crafts.meadmaking about racking a
>>>> mead that has been fermenting a while and it has made me realise that I
>>>> am unsure about racking in general. As a rule of thumb, how often do
>>>> people here rack their wines both during long fermentations and after
>>>> fermentation?
>>>>
>>>> Probably a stupid question but I am still learning (and you guys have
>>>> taught me a lot so far!)
>>> I only do country wines, so not sure about grape wines (see Tom's post).
>>> I generally do my first racking about 2 months after transferring from
>>> the must bucket, without any stirring of the lees. After that every 2-3
>>> months, gently stirring every couple of weeks until sediment stops
>>> dropping. Then I tend to finish it and leave it until bottling.
>>
>>
>
>

I try to avoid racking as much as possible to avoid oxygen contact, but
do at least every three months. My experience is that a gentle stir
doesn't kick up much sediment and a couple of days afterwards, the wine
is as clear as before. I read somewhere (can't remember) that gentle
stirring is meant to help stop the dead yeast from rotting and imparting
off flavours.

Dar V wrote:
> As the others point out, you rack your wine to get it off the sediment and
> to help it clear (although my limited understanding of kit wines and grape
> wines, is that sometimes the sediment is good). The more sediment which
> drops out, the clearer your wine should get over time. I make basically
> fruit, veggie, and herb wines - I rack depending on the wine. Since I
> usually bottle when the wine is 7 months old, that means I might rack 2-4
> times during that period, but it depends on how much sediment is dropping
> out; 3 is the average, 5 is the extreme. I had an oregano wine, which was
> so clear & with so little sediment, that it was unbelievable - so I didn't
> rack it as much.
> Darlene
> Wisconsin
>
> "alien" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>R-D-C wrote:
>>
>>>Hello,
>>>
>>>I have just posted a message to rec.crafts.meadmaking about racking a
>>>mead that has been fermenting a while and it has made me realise that I
>>>am unsure about racking in general. As a rule of thumb, how often do
>>>people here rack their wines both during long fermentations and after
>>>fermentation?
>>>
>>>Probably a stupid question but I am still learning (and you guys have
>>>taught me a lot so far!)
>>
>>I only do country wines, so not sure about grape wines (see Tom's post). I
>>generally do my first racking about 2 months after transferring from the
>>must bucket, without any stirring of the lees. After that every 2-3
>>months, gently stirring every couple of weeks until sediment stops
>>dropping. Then I tend to finish it and leave it until bottling.
>
>
>

Racking is important for the obvious clarification reason but it also helps
tremendously with red wines' color stability and removal of "reduced" odors
when done with aeration. I avoid air contact with my white wines when
racking and I rack them usually 3 times. To do this I use Argon to blanket
the receiving container and the container being emptied. For red wines, I
like to rack the first 3-4 times with aeration by trickling the wine down
the side of the new carboy. There may be an additional 2-3 rackings after
these first ones until the wine is brilliant.

CHEERS!!

Aaron

"R-D-C" > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> I have just posted a message to rec.crafts.meadmaking about racking a mead
> that has been fermenting a while and it has made me realise that I am
> unsure about racking in general. As a rule of thumb, how often do people
> here rack their wines both during long fermentations and after
> fermentation?
>
> Probably a stupid question but I am still learning (and you guys have
> taught me a lot so far!)
>

Racking is important for the obvious clarification reason but it also helps
tremendously with red wines' color stability and removal of "reduced" odors
when done with aeration. I avoid air contact with my white wines when
racking and I rack them usually 3 times. To do this I use Argon to blanket
the receiving container and the container being emptied. For red wines, I
like to rack the first 3-4 times with aeration by trickling the wine down
the side of the new carboy. There may be an additional 2-3 rackings after
these first ones until the wine is brilliant.

CHEERS!!

Aaron

"R-D-C" > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> I have just posted a message to rec.crafts.meadmaking about racking a mead
> that has been fermenting a while and it has made me realise that I am
> unsure about racking in general. As a rule of thumb, how often do people
> here rack their wines both during long fermentations and after
> fermentation?
>
> Probably a stupid question but I am still learning (and you guys have
> taught me a lot so far!)
>

"R-D-C" > wrote in message
...
> What do you do when aging a wine? I was under the impression that after
> it was completely clear it was still a good idea to leave it in the
> demijohn for a period. Would you just leave it alone for that period;
> would you need to add further campden tablets?

You're referring to bulk aging. You need to set the correct level of free
SO2 in the wine, but if it's topped up and bunged tight there's no place for
the SO2 to go, so you can pretty much leave it alone until you're ready to
bottle.

Tom S

"R-D-C" > wrote in message
...
> What do you do when aging a wine? I was under the impression that after
> it was completely clear it was still a good idea to leave it in the
> demijohn for a period. Would you just leave it alone for that period;
> would you need to add further campden tablets?

You're referring to bulk aging. You need to set the correct level of free
SO2 in the wine, but if it's topped up and bunged tight there's no place for
the SO2 to go, so you can pretty much leave it alone until you're ready to
bottle.

Tom S

"alien" > wrote in message
...
>I try to avoid racking as much as possible to avoid oxygen contact, but do
>at least every three months. My experience is that a gentle stir doesn't
>kick up much sediment and a couple of days afterwards, the wine is as clear
>as before. I read somewhere (can't remember) that gentle stirring is meant
>to help stop the dead yeast from rotting and imparting off flavours.

You're referring to sur lie aging, but that's generally done on the _gross_
lees - not fine lees - and usually only in white wines, although some
winemakers are experimenting with going into barrel "dirty" with reds -
often straight from the press - a practice I don't advocate because of the
considerable risk/reward ratio.

Tom S

"alien" > wrote in message
...
>I try to avoid racking as much as possible to avoid oxygen contact, but do
>at least every three months. My experience is that a gentle stir doesn't
>kick up much sediment and a couple of days afterwards, the wine is as clear
>as before. I read somewhere (can't remember) that gentle stirring is meant
>to help stop the dead yeast from rotting and imparting off flavours.

You're referring to sur lie aging, but that's generally done on the _gross_
lees - not fine lees - and usually only in white wines, although some
winemakers are experimenting with going into barrel "dirty" with reds -
often straight from the press - a practice I don't advocate because of the
considerable risk/reward ratio.

Tom S

"alien" > wrote in message
...
>I try to avoid racking as much as possible to avoid oxygen contact, but do
>at least every three months. My experience is that a gentle stir doesn't
>kick up much sediment and a couple of days afterwards, the wine is as clear
>as before. I read somewhere (can't remember) that gentle stirring is meant
>to help stop the dead yeast from rotting and imparting off flavours.

You're referring to sur lie aging, but that's generally done on the _gross_
lees - not fine lees - and usually only in white wines, although some
winemakers are experimenting with going into barrel "dirty" with reds -
often straight from the press - a practice I don't advocate because of the
considerable risk/reward ratio.

Tom S

Hi Darlene

I would love to hear about your oregano wine. Is it drinkable or do you use
it mainly for cooking, and if so how do you use it ? I made a batch of
garlic wine and coffee wine for cooking and I can't wait to use them. I'd
like to know about other types of wine that are great for cooking.

Marc
Québec

Marc,
I made a pepper wine which I'm still using for cooking, but others make it
to drink. The pepper wine just adds a certain something extra to any dish
like chili, spaghetti, lasagna, etc. I guess I'm looking at using the
oregano wine basically for cooking. I have an oregano plant "gone wild" in
my garden (there was so much of it I had to cut it back), so that's why I
made it. It is still bulk aging, so I have not tried it. I decided to keep
it dry. I will bottle in January, so I usually have a glass leftover to
try - will let you know how drinkable it is then. Let me know about the
garlic wine & coffee wine. I'm sure others will chime in on the cooking
possibilities.
Darlene
Wisconsin

"Marc" > wrote in message
.. .
> Hi Darlene
>
> I would love to hear about your oregano wine. Is it drinkable or do you
> use
> it mainly for cooking, and if so how do you use it ? I made a batch of
> garlic wine and coffee wine for cooking and I can't wait to use them. I'd
> like to know about other types of wine that are great for cooking.
>
> Marc
> Québec
>
>

"R-D-C" > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> I have just posted a message to rec.crafts.meadmaking about racking a mead
> that has been fermenting a while and it has made me realise that I am
unsure
> about racking in general. As a rule of thumb, how often do people here
rack
> their wines both during long fermentations and after fermentation?
>
> Probably a stupid question but I am still learning (and you guys have
taught
> me a lot so far!)
>
I've been making wine since 1977 and I =never= rack anything that is
still fermenting; that completely defeats the purpose of racking which is
the elimination of sediment. IMO.

"R-D-C" > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> I have just posted a message to rec.crafts.meadmaking about racking a mead
> that has been fermenting a while and it has made me realise that I am
unsure
> about racking in general. As a rule of thumb, how often do people here
rack
> their wines both during long fermentations and after fermentation?
>
> Probably a stupid question but I am still learning (and you guys have
taught
> me a lot so far!)
>
I've been making wine since 1977 and I =never= rack anything that is
still fermenting; that completely defeats the purpose of racking which is
the elimination of sediment. IMO.

I was intending to leave the wine under an airlock, rather than bunged up
tight.

Is this wrong?

"Tom S" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "R-D-C" > wrote in message
> ...
>> What do you do when aging a wine? I was under the impression that after
>> it was completely clear it was still a good idea to leave it in the
>> demijohn for a period. Would you just leave it alone for that period;
>> would you need to add further campden tablets?
>
> You're referring to bulk aging. You need to set the correct level of free
> SO2 in the wine, but if it's topped up and bunged tight there's no place
> for the SO2 to go, so you can pretty much leave it alone until you're
> ready to bottle.
>
> Tom S
>

I was intending to leave the wine under an airlock, rather than bunged up
tight.

Is this wrong?

"Tom S" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "R-D-C" > wrote in message
> ...
>> What do you do when aging a wine? I was under the impression that after
>> it was completely clear it was still a good idea to leave it in the
>> demijohn for a period. Would you just leave it alone for that period;
>> would you need to add further campden tablets?
>
> You're referring to bulk aging. You need to set the correct level of free
> SO2 in the wine, but if it's topped up and bunged tight there's no place
> for the SO2 to go, so you can pretty much leave it alone until you're
> ready to bottle.
>
> Tom S
>

I have heard of meads fermenting for over a year. This not a problem?

"B0B" > wrote in message
...
>
> "R-D-C" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have just posted a message to rec.crafts.meadmaking about racking a
>> mead
>> that has been fermenting a while and it has made me realise that I am
> unsure
>> about racking in general. As a rule of thumb, how often do people here
> rack
>> their wines both during long fermentations and after fermentation?
>>
>> Probably a stupid question but I am still learning (and you guys have
> taught
>> me a lot so far!)
>>
> I've been making wine since 1977 and I =never= rack anything that is
> still fermenting; that completely defeats the purpose of racking which is
> the elimination of sediment. IMO.
>
>

Marc, since you know about the germ and had really fresh garlic, I'd
be inclined to think it was the natural color. Usuallythe green I see
in the germ is very pale. Maybe it was the raisins, maybe it was any
amount of suspended solids. Is the wine clear yet?

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 23:47:26 -0500, "Marc" > wrote:

>Hi Greg
>
>I always do that too. However, the garlic I used for my wine seemed very
>fresh and I didn't spot any of thoses green germs. Since I just chooped the
>garlic cloves in a food processor after I peeled them, it's possible I might
>have missed some germs. Therefore, my wife thinks the greenish color of the
>wine is maybe due to a coloration caused by these germs, like chlorophyl
>would do. That's what I'm not sure about. I tend to believe it's rather
>caused by oxidation, just like onions oxidize very quickly once they're
>chopped.
>
>Marc
>
>"Hoss" > a écrit dans le message de
.. .
>> marc,
>>
>> I always cut out the green sprout (germ) when I cook or cruch the
>> garlic, as it does tend to taste off (bitter or rootier?) but maybe
>> that's just if it is saute'd and it burns quicker?
>> I hope it works out well for you.
>>
>> greg
>>
>>
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