What would be the effect on quality, flavor, essence (not on
fermentation time - that horse is dead) from fermenting wine at 62 to
64 degrees F rather that 70+.

"Ron White" > wrote in message
...
> What would be the effect on quality, flavor, essence (not on
> fermentation time - that horse is dead) from fermenting wine at 62 to
> 64 degrees F rather that 70+.

That is quite desirable in white wines, but reds benefit from warmer
temperatures because the heat helps to extract the color from the skins of
the grapes. 80-90°F is good for that, and higher is OK too as long as the
fermentation doesn't stick because you've killed the yeast.

If you're trying to inhibit ML in a white wine you might consider going even
lower - say ~50°F.

Tom S

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 02:33:32 GMT, "Tom S" >
wrote:

>
>"Ron White" > wrote in message
.. .
>> What would be the effect on quality, flavor, essence (not on
>> fermentation time - that horse is dead) from fermenting wine at 62 to
>> 64 degrees F rather that 70+.
>
>That is quite desirable in white wines, but reds benefit from warmer
>temperatures because the heat helps to extract the color from the skins of
>the grapes. 80-90°F is good for that, and higher is OK too as long as the
>fermentation doesn't stick because you've killed the yeast.
>
>If you're trying to inhibit ML in a white wine you might consider going even
>lower - say ~50°F.
>
>Tom S
>
but the question was... "What would be the effect on quality, flavor,
essence"

"Ron White" > wrote in message
...
> but the question was... "What would be the effect on quality, flavor,
> essence"

All three would be enhanced in a white wine.

Tom S

it would taste better. -how's that for a short answer

"Ron White" > wrote in message
...
> What would be the effect on quality, flavor, essence (not on
> fermentation time - that horse is dead) from fermenting wine at 62 to
> 64 degrees F rather that 70+.

Thank you, good followup answer.

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 13:57:37 GMT, "Tom S" >
wrote:

>
>"Ron White" > wrote in message
.. .
>> but the question was... "What would be the effect on quality, flavor,
>> essence"
>
>All three would be enhanced in a white wine.
>
>Tom S
>

Cool, thanks.
On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 00:18:28 GMT, "scott f" >
wrote:

>it would taste better. -how's that for a short answer
>
>"Ron White" > wrote in message
.. .
>> What would be the effect on quality, flavor, essence (not on
>> fermentation time - that horse is dead) from fermenting wine at 62 to
>> 64 degrees F rather that 70+.
>

"Ron White" > wrote in message
...
> And how would "quality, flavor, and essence" be effected in a red wine
> fermented at these lower temps?

I've heard of some advocates of low temperature fermentation in reds, but
you'll never get deep color that way. As far as the other attributes go, I
really couldn't say for sure because I've never done side-by-side trials. I
know that it isn't popular in the industry unless one is making a fruit
forward, simple wine like Beaujolais Nouveau.

Tom S

"Ron White" > wrote in message
...
> And how would "quality, flavor, and essence" be effected in a red wine
> fermented at these lower temps?

I've heard of some advocates of low temperature fermentation in reds, but
you'll never get deep color that way. As far as the other attributes go, I
really couldn't say for sure because I've never done side-by-side trials. I
know that it isn't popular in the industry unless one is making a fruit
forward, simple wine like Beaujolais Nouveau.

Tom S

I am doing a Liebfraumach,my first. I did the primary fermentation at
72. I could do the secondary at 60 or 72. According to you post 60
would be better. Is this correct. I only have 76, 72, and 60 as stable
tempuratures.
Thanks
Jack
"Tom S" > wrote in message .com>...
> "Ron White" > wrote in message
> ...
> > What would be the effect on quality, flavor, essence (not on
> > fermentation time - that horse is dead) from fermenting wine at 62 to
> > 64 degrees F rather that 70+.
>
> That is quite desirable in white wines, but reds benefit from warmer
> temperatures because the heat helps to extract the color from the skins of
> the grapes. 80-90¢XF is good for that, and higher is OK too as long as the
> fermentation doesn't stick because you've killed the yeast.
>
> If you're trying to inhibit ML in a white wine you might consider going even
> lower - say ~50¢XF.
>
> Tom S

I am doing a Liebfraumach,my first. I did the primary fermentation at
72. I could do the secondary at 60 or 72. According to you post 60
would be better. Is this correct. I only have 76, 72, and 60 as stable
tempuratures.
Thanks
Jack
"Tom S" > wrote in message .com>...
> "Ron White" > wrote in message
> ...
> > What would be the effect on quality, flavor, essence (not on
> > fermentation time - that horse is dead) from fermenting wine at 62 to
> > 64 degrees F rather that 70+.
>
> That is quite desirable in white wines, but reds benefit from warmer
> temperatures because the heat helps to extract the color from the skins of
> the grapes. 80-90¢XF is good for that, and higher is OK too as long as the
> fermentation doesn't stick because you've killed the yeast.
>
> If you're trying to inhibit ML in a white wine you might consider going even
> lower - say ~50¢XF.
>
> Tom S

Thanks.
Thank you to all who gave good answers to try to help.
I apologize to all I have offended.
No excuses at all. I was a (fill in the blank as some of you have
already done).
I have been on usenet for many years and have never behaved badly.
Bad day. I don't know what my problem was.
I also was an ass on one beer post that day.
I have read 30+ thousand headers on both groups, I know you all.
You are largely great people on both groups.
I am not a trol - really just had a brain fart.
You all may flame me till you feel better -- I deserve it.
I will try (but am human) to just take it and shut up until it's
over).

Again I am sorry and there was no excuse for my behavior.


On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 03:20:51 GMT, "Tom S" >
wrote:

>
>"Ron White" > wrote in message
.. .
>> And how would "quality, flavor, and essence" be effected in a red wine
>> fermented at these lower temps?
>
>I've heard of some advocates of low temperature fermentation in reds, but
>you'll never get deep color that way. As far as the other attributes go, I
>really couldn't say for sure because I've never done side-by-side trials. I
>know that it isn't popular in the industry unless one is making a fruit
>forward, simple wine like Beaujolais Nouveau.
>
>Tom S
>

"Ron White" > wrote in message
...
> Thank you, good followup answer.
>
> On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 13:57:37 GMT, "Tom S" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Ron White" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> but the question was... "What would be the effect on quality, flavor,
> >> essence"
> >
> >All three would be enhanced in a white wine.
> >
> >Tom S
> >
Hmmm, looks like I shall be closing the heater vent in my laundry
room/brewery....

"Ron White" > wrote in message
...
> Thank you, good followup answer.
>
> On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 13:57:37 GMT, "Tom S" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Ron White" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> but the question was... "What would be the effect on quality, flavor,
> >> essence"
> >
> >All three would be enhanced in a white wine.
> >
> >Tom S
> >
Hmmm, looks like I shall be closing the heater vent in my laundry
room/brewery....

When I first started fermenting whites at 55 degrees, I was amazed that it
actually worked. But the flavor extraction really is better at a low
temperature. It takes forever (? 2 months), so it's tests your patience. The
other thing that I've found is that some yeasts readily ferment at 55 but some
don't. Premier Cuvee is just fine at the low temperature. But in spite of the
manufacturer's specs, D47 yeast just doesn't seem to work at a low temperature.

Lee

When I first started fermenting whites at 55 degrees, I was amazed that it
actually worked. But the flavor extraction really is better at a low
temperature. It takes forever (? 2 months), so it's tests your patience. The
other thing that I've found is that some yeasts readily ferment at 55 but some
don't. Premier Cuvee is just fine at the low temperature. But in spite of the
manufacturer's specs, D47 yeast just doesn't seem to work at a low temperature.

Lee

I've always thought that it was better to ferment (most) whites at a
lower temp. in order to avoid certain off-flavors that can occur at
higher temps. For this reason I don't know that it will help a lot to
primary at high temp and then secondary at lower - most of the damage
has been done. Its still a good idea to secondary whites at lower
temps, but much better if you start primary fermentation at low temp.
Miker

I've always thought that it was better to ferment (most) whites at a
lower temp. in order to avoid certain off-flavors that can occur at
higher temps. For this reason I don't know that it will help a lot to
primary at high temp and then secondary at lower - most of the damage
has been done. Its still a good idea to secondary whites at lower
temps, but much better if you start primary fermentation at low temp.
Miker

Tom S ) wrote:

>"Ron White" > wrote in message
.. .
>> And how would "quality, flavor, and essence" be effected in a red wine
>> fermented at these lower temps?

>I've heard of some advocates of low temperature fermentation in reds, but
>you'll never get deep color that way. As far as the other attributes go, I
>really couldn't say for sure because I've never done side-by-side trials. I
>know that it isn't popular in the industry unless one is making a fruit
>forward, simple wine like Beaujolais Nouveau.

>Tom S


Except that that's not always how carbonic is done. One of the
traditions for carbonic requires heating the whole clusters up to
90F for a couple of days early in the fermentation.

I've tried it both ways (that way and also heating lower, to 80ish),
and found that you get what you'd expect to get: the 90F
fermentation produces a wine more like a regular red wine: more
color and tannin, and less of the "tooty-fruity, bubble-gum-like"
character associated with carbonic.

Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

Tom S ) wrote:

>"Ron White" > wrote in message
.. .
>> And how would "quality, flavor, and essence" be effected in a red wine
>> fermented at these lower temps?

>I've heard of some advocates of low temperature fermentation in reds, but
>you'll never get deep color that way. As far as the other attributes go, I
>really couldn't say for sure because I've never done side-by-side trials. I
>know that it isn't popular in the industry unless one is making a fruit
>forward, simple wine like Beaujolais Nouveau.

>Tom S


Except that that's not always how carbonic is done. One of the
traditions for carbonic requires heating the whole clusters up to
90F for a couple of days early in the fermentation.

I've tried it both ways (that way and also heating lower, to 80ish),
and found that you get what you'd expect to get: the 90F
fermentation produces a wine more like a regular red wine: more
color and tannin, and less of the "tooty-fruity, bubble-gum-like"
character associated with carbonic.

Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

Tom S ) wrote:

>"Ron White" > wrote in message
.. .
>> And how would "quality, flavor, and essence" be effected in a red wine
>> fermented at these lower temps?

>I've heard of some advocates of low temperature fermentation in reds, but
>you'll never get deep color that way. As far as the other attributes go, I
>really couldn't say for sure because I've never done side-by-side trials. I
>know that it isn't popular in the industry unless one is making a fruit
>forward, simple wine like Beaujolais Nouveau.

>Tom S


Except that that's not always how carbonic is done. One of the
traditions for carbonic requires heating the whole clusters up to
90F for a couple of days early in the fermentation.

I've tried it both ways (that way and also heating lower, to 80ish),
and found that you get what you'd expect to get: the 90F
fermentation produces a wine more like a regular red wine: more
color and tannin, and less of the "tooty-fruity, bubble-gum-like"
character associated with carbonic.

Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

In article >,
LG1111 > wrote:
>When I first started fermenting whites at 55 degrees, I was amazed that it
>actually worked. But the flavor extraction really is better at a low
>temperature. It takes forever (? 2 months), so it's tests your patience. The
>other thing that I've found is that some yeasts readily ferment at 55 but some
>don't. Premier Cuvee is just fine at the low temperature. But in spite of the
>manufacturer's specs, D47 yeast just doesn't seem to work at a low temperature.

It may help to start it at the higher temperature, and then let it
cool--the yeast will continue to generate some heat. You can even wrap
with a towel to help keep the heat up.

hawk
--
Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign
111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail
Find commentary on law, economics, and X and postings.
other issues of the day at dochawk.org! / \

I read some where that you get increased extraction of tanins with
warmer temperatures which is important for those big reds.

As for the whites, I suspect that the faster ferment is part of the
problem. It just smells so dang good when it's fermenting that I
suspect that some of the deliciousness has gone out the vent.

Myself, I've been obligated to ferment at whatever temperature my
cellar is at and it's cold for a red but probably good for a white.
Chris