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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Brian Lundeen
 
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Default Beano for Vino

Over in the brew world, we are quite familiar with the use of Beano
(basically an enzyme that converts complex sugars to simple ones that can be
converted to alcohol) to reduce the terminal gravity of a beer. Often with
less than pleasing results because beer requires unfermented sugars to give
it a proper malt characer, and Beano often doesn't stop when you want it to.

So, back to the wine world, I've got these bloody Brew King/Winexpert
Australian Chardonnay kits that stopped short of dryness. Well short.

The first kit I double pitched with both kits' included Premier Cuvee yeast.
Gave it my normal Superfood and DAP additions. With my grape wines, I get
down to -1.5 to -2 Brix. This beast fermented heartily then stopped dead at
0.

The second one I got a couple of packs of fresh K1-V1116, did the nutrient
thing, and the bugger again stopped at 0 Brix. I can't say I'm surprised, I
have yet to have a kit white go below about - 0.5 Brix. Clearly the people
at the kit factories are adding some kind of unfermentable sugars into these
kits so they don't go bone dry.

So with a starting Brix around 24.5, that is a horrendous amount of
unfermented sugars left, and it tastes that way. If I can't get these wines
to dryness, I might as well pour them down the sewer. So I decided to try
adding some Beano, to see if it would create a more fermentable product. So
far, adding the Beano seems to have done something. The barrel of Chard had
stopped bubbling its airlock, and now it is at least burping once every
couple of minutes. But at that rate, I might not live to see it reach
dryness. I don't want to see this turn into a years long fermentation.

Any thoughts you have on this experiment, please share.

Brian



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Ken Vale
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Brian Lundeen wrote:

> Over in the brew world, we are quite familiar with the use of Beano
> (basically an enzyme that converts complex sugars to simple ones that can be
> converted to alcohol) to reduce the terminal gravity of a beer. Often with
> less than pleasing results because beer requires unfermented sugars to give
> it a proper malt characer, and Beano often doesn't stop when you want it to.
>
> So, back to the wine world, I've got these bloody Brew King/Winexpert
> Australian Chardonnay kits that stopped short of dryness. Well short.
>
> The first kit I double pitched with both kits' included Premier Cuvee yeast.
> Gave it my normal Superfood and DAP additions. With my grape wines, I get
> down to -1.5 to -2 Brix. This beast fermented heartily then stopped dead at
> 0.
>
> The second one I got a couple of packs of fresh K1-V1116, did the nutrient
> thing, and the bugger again stopped at 0 Brix. I can't say I'm surprised, I
> have yet to have a kit white go below about - 0.5 Brix. Clearly the people
> at the kit factories are adding some kind of unfermentable sugars into these
> kits so they don't go bone dry.
>
> So with a starting Brix around 24.5, that is a horrendous amount of
> unfermented sugars left, and it tastes that way. If I can't get these wines
> to dryness, I might as well pour them down the sewer. So I decided to try
> adding some Beano, to see if it would create a more fermentable product. So
> far, adding the Beano seems to have done something. The barrel of Chard had
> stopped bubbling its airlock, and now it is at least burping once every
> couple of minutes. But at that rate, I might not live to see it reach
> dryness. I don't want to see this turn into a years long fermentation.
>
> Any thoughts you have on this experiment, please share.
>
> Brian
>


I know nothing about the use of Beano in beer/wine, but it sounds to me
like you have a stuck fermentation. Stuck fermentations can be cured in
a number of ways (stirring, adding nutrients, adding energizer, pitching
in a new yeast packet, etc.) so it might be that adding beano is yet
another way to unstick a fermentation. Out of curiosity how much beano
did you add?
Ken
  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ken Vale
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Brian Lundeen wrote:

> Over in the brew world, we are quite familiar with the use of Beano
> (basically an enzyme that converts complex sugars to simple ones that can be
> converted to alcohol) to reduce the terminal gravity of a beer. Often with
> less than pleasing results because beer requires unfermented sugars to give
> it a proper malt characer, and Beano often doesn't stop when you want it to.
>
> So, back to the wine world, I've got these bloody Brew King/Winexpert
> Australian Chardonnay kits that stopped short of dryness. Well short.
>
> The first kit I double pitched with both kits' included Premier Cuvee yeast.
> Gave it my normal Superfood and DAP additions. With my grape wines, I get
> down to -1.5 to -2 Brix. This beast fermented heartily then stopped dead at
> 0.
>
> The second one I got a couple of packs of fresh K1-V1116, did the nutrient
> thing, and the bugger again stopped at 0 Brix. I can't say I'm surprised, I
> have yet to have a kit white go below about - 0.5 Brix. Clearly the people
> at the kit factories are adding some kind of unfermentable sugars into these
> kits so they don't go bone dry.
>
> So with a starting Brix around 24.5, that is a horrendous amount of
> unfermented sugars left, and it tastes that way. If I can't get these wines
> to dryness, I might as well pour them down the sewer. So I decided to try
> adding some Beano, to see if it would create a more fermentable product. So
> far, adding the Beano seems to have done something. The barrel of Chard had
> stopped bubbling its airlock, and now it is at least burping once every
> couple of minutes. But at that rate, I might not live to see it reach
> dryness. I don't want to see this turn into a years long fermentation.
>
> Any thoughts you have on this experiment, please share.
>
> Brian
>


I know nothing about the use of Beano in beer/wine, but it sounds to me
like you have a stuck fermentation. Stuck fermentations can be cured in
a number of ways (stirring, adding nutrients, adding energizer, pitching
in a new yeast packet, etc.) so it might be that adding beano is yet
another way to unstick a fermentation. Out of curiosity how much beano
did you add?
Ken
  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Brian Lundeen
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Ken Vale" > wrote in message
...
>
> I know nothing about the use of Beano in beer/wine, but it sounds to me
> like you have a stuck fermentation. Stuck fermentations can be cured in
> a number of ways (stirring, adding nutrients, adding energizer, pitching
> in a new yeast packet, etc.) so it might be that adding beano is yet
> another way to unstick a fermentation. Out of curiosity how much beano
> did you add?


So far I've added 9 tablets to my 32 liter barrel (brewers typically need
just 2-3 per 19 liters to get their beers dropping) and 4 to an 11 liter
carboy. The barrel is "up" to a spectacular 75 seconds per burp, carboy
(which has been sitting longer so probably less life in the yeast) is pretty
much burpless.

I only ever get these finishing gravity issues with kits. My grape wines
generally hit -1.5 to -2 Brix, without hesitation. I use plenty of nutrients
during the fermentation. Superfood initially, then a DAP addition a couple
of days later. The yeast has been stirred up, and it's mostly all there
still, since I want to do sur lies aging. Both yeasts I used are known to
have excellent alcohol tolerance and should take 24.5 to dryness.

I think I will try adding some fresh K1-V yeast to the barrel. I'll pull
some wine off, dilute it and see if I can get a good active starter going
before sending it into the fray.

Brian


  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
pp
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message >...
> Over in the brew world, we are quite familiar with the use of Beano
> (basically an enzyme that converts complex sugars to simple ones that can be
> converted to alcohol) to reduce the terminal gravity of a beer. Often with
> less than pleasing results because beer requires unfermented sugars to give
> it a proper malt characer, and Beano often doesn't stop when you want it to.
>
> So, back to the wine world, I've got these bloody Brew King/Winexpert
> Australian Chardonnay kits that stopped short of dryness. Well short.
>
> The first kit I double pitched with both kits' included Premier Cuvee yeast.
> Gave it my normal Superfood and DAP additions. With my grape wines, I get
> down to -1.5 to -2 Brix. This beast fermented heartily then stopped dead at
> 0.
>
> The second one I got a couple of packs of fresh K1-V1116, did the nutrient
> thing, and the bugger again stopped at 0 Brix. I can't say I'm surprised, I
> have yet to have a kit white go below about - 0.5 Brix. Clearly the people
> at the kit factories are adding some kind of unfermentable sugars into these
> kits so they don't go bone dry.
>
> So with a starting Brix around 24.5, that is a horrendous amount of
> unfermented sugars left, and it tastes that way. If I can't get these wines
> to dryness, I might as well pour them down the sewer. So I decided to try
> adding some Beano, to see if it would create a more fermentable product. So
> far, adding the Beano seems to have done something. The barrel of Chard had
> stopped bubbling its airlock, and now it is at least burping once every
> couple of minutes. But at that rate, I might not live to see it reach
> dryness. I don't want to see this turn into a years long fermentation.
>
> Any thoughts you have on this experiment, please share.
>
> Brian


I haven't done these kits but several white kits from Spagnol's. I
nver had any problems getting down to -2B. In fact, the 2 driest
whites I've ever got were 2 white kits that ended at around -2.5B.

In terms of yeast nutrients, kits should have these blended in
already, so it might not be a good idea adding more.

What temperature did you ferment at?

I'd suggest you contact Winexpert directly and ask them about what the
ending gravity should be for this kit - that should give you an idea
whether nonfermentable sugars are involved and they might have some
suggestions too what to do. It does sound weird.

Pp


  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Brian Lundeen
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"pp" > wrote in message
om...
>
> What temperature did you ferment at?


18-20C
>
> I'd suggest you contact Winexpert directly and ask them about what the
> ending gravity should be for this kit - that should give you an idea
> whether nonfermentable sugars are involved and they might have some
> suggestions too what to do. It does sound weird.
>


Just as a followup, a friend of mine reminded me that Clinitest tablets will
give me an accurate determination of remaining fermentable sugars, and from
that standpoint, 3 different samples on a couple of scales gave me a reading
of approx 0.5% fermentable sugars remaining. (I'm still working on attacking
those via normal stuck fermentation techniques. The Beano has really done
nothing to produce a more fermentable must).

Anyway, my hydrometers give me readings of 0.997 (wide range) and 1.000
(narrow range). A recent test of another wine yielded a .992 reading on the
narrow range, so I know it is not reading abnormally high.

At a conservative estimate then, there must be at least 1% residual sugar in
this particular wine kit in a form that Clinitest does not pick up as a
fermentable sugar. That IMO is unacceptable in a higher end kit.

Brian


  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Brian Lundeen
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"pp" > wrote in message
om...
>
> What temperature did you ferment at?


18-20C
>
> I'd suggest you contact Winexpert directly and ask them about what the
> ending gravity should be for this kit - that should give you an idea
> whether nonfermentable sugars are involved and they might have some
> suggestions too what to do. It does sound weird.
>


Just as a followup, a friend of mine reminded me that Clinitest tablets will
give me an accurate determination of remaining fermentable sugars, and from
that standpoint, 3 different samples on a couple of scales gave me a reading
of approx 0.5% fermentable sugars remaining. (I'm still working on attacking
those via normal stuck fermentation techniques. The Beano has really done
nothing to produce a more fermentable must).

Anyway, my hydrometers give me readings of 0.997 (wide range) and 1.000
(narrow range). A recent test of another wine yielded a .992 reading on the
narrow range, so I know it is not reading abnormally high.

At a conservative estimate then, there must be at least 1% residual sugar in
this particular wine kit in a form that Clinitest does not pick up as a
fermentable sugar. That IMO is unacceptable in a higher end kit.

Brian


  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Brian Lundeen
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"pp" > wrote in message
om...
>
> What temperature did you ferment at?


18-20C
>
> I'd suggest you contact Winexpert directly and ask them about what the
> ending gravity should be for this kit - that should give you an idea
> whether nonfermentable sugars are involved and they might have some
> suggestions too what to do. It does sound weird.
>


Just as a followup, a friend of mine reminded me that Clinitest tablets will
give me an accurate determination of remaining fermentable sugars, and from
that standpoint, 3 different samples on a couple of scales gave me a reading
of approx 0.5% fermentable sugars remaining. (I'm still working on attacking
those via normal stuck fermentation techniques. The Beano has really done
nothing to produce a more fermentable must).

Anyway, my hydrometers give me readings of 0.997 (wide range) and 1.000
(narrow range). A recent test of another wine yielded a .992 reading on the
narrow range, so I know it is not reading abnormally high.

At a conservative estimate then, there must be at least 1% residual sugar in
this particular wine kit in a form that Clinitest does not pick up as a
fermentable sugar. That IMO is unacceptable in a higher end kit.

Brian


  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
pp
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message >...
> "pp" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > What temperature did you ferment at?

>
> 18-20C
> >
> > I'd suggest you contact Winexpert directly and ask them about what the
> > ending gravity should be for this kit - that should give you an idea
> > whether nonfermentable sugars are involved and they might have some
> > suggestions too what to do. It does sound weird.
> >

>
> Just as a followup, a friend of mine reminded me that Clinitest tablets will
> give me an accurate determination of remaining fermentable sugars, and from
> that standpoint, 3 different samples on a couple of scales gave me a reading
> of approx 0.5% fermentable sugars remaining. (I'm still working on attacking
> those via normal stuck fermentation techniques. The Beano has really done
> nothing to produce a more fermentable must).
>
> Anyway, my hydrometers give me readings of 0.997 (wide range) and 1.000
> (narrow range). A recent test of another wine yielded a .992 reading on the
> narrow range, so I know it is not reading abnormally high.
>
> At a conservative estimate then, there must be at least 1% residual sugar in
> this particular wine kit in a form that Clinitest does not pick up as a
> fermentable sugar. That IMO is unacceptable in a higher end kit.
>
> Brian


That's interesting. I'm wondering whether it's really the case that
Clinitest only picks up fermentable sugars - I guess this is more a
medical question. I'd still suggest you talk to Winexpert, it would be
interesting to see what they have to say. I know some of their (red)
kits end up with a high sg, but perhaps this is not sugar but other
solids... just a thought. I've only done Spagnols' Australian Chard
and that was bone dry - 0.990.

Pp
  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
pp
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message >...
> "pp" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > What temperature did you ferment at?

>
> 18-20C
> >
> > I'd suggest you contact Winexpert directly and ask them about what the
> > ending gravity should be for this kit - that should give you an idea
> > whether nonfermentable sugars are involved and they might have some
> > suggestions too what to do. It does sound weird.
> >

>
> Just as a followup, a friend of mine reminded me that Clinitest tablets will
> give me an accurate determination of remaining fermentable sugars, and from
> that standpoint, 3 different samples on a couple of scales gave me a reading
> of approx 0.5% fermentable sugars remaining. (I'm still working on attacking
> those via normal stuck fermentation techniques. The Beano has really done
> nothing to produce a more fermentable must).
>
> Anyway, my hydrometers give me readings of 0.997 (wide range) and 1.000
> (narrow range). A recent test of another wine yielded a .992 reading on the
> narrow range, so I know it is not reading abnormally high.
>
> At a conservative estimate then, there must be at least 1% residual sugar in
> this particular wine kit in a form that Clinitest does not pick up as a
> fermentable sugar. That IMO is unacceptable in a higher end kit.
>
> Brian


That's interesting. I'm wondering whether it's really the case that
Clinitest only picks up fermentable sugars - I guess this is more a
medical question. I'd still suggest you talk to Winexpert, it would be
interesting to see what they have to say. I know some of their (red)
kits end up with a high sg, but perhaps this is not sugar but other
solids... just a thought. I've only done Spagnols' Australian Chard
and that was bone dry - 0.990.

Pp


  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Brian Lundeen
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"pp" > wrote in message
om...
>
> That's interesting. I'm wondering whether it's really the case that
> Clinitest only picks up fermentable sugars - I guess this is more a
> medical question.


I won't dare wade into that one. If you want to be fascinated for hours
(days? weeks?), go to the Homebrew Digest web site www.hbd.org and do a
search there on Clinitest.

I'd still suggest you talk to Winexpert, it would be
> interesting to see what they have to say. I know some of their (red)
> kits end up with a high sg, but perhaps this is not sugar but other
> solids... just a thought. I've only done Spagnols' Australian Chard
> and that was bone dry - 0.990.
>

What I think I will do is post on the WinePress site and see if I can get a
response out of Tim Vandergrift.

Brian


  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Brian Lundeen
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"pp" > wrote in message
om...
>
> That's interesting. I'm wondering whether it's really the case that
> Clinitest only picks up fermentable sugars - I guess this is more a
> medical question.


I won't dare wade into that one. If you want to be fascinated for hours
(days? weeks?), go to the Homebrew Digest web site www.hbd.org and do a
search there on Clinitest.

I'd still suggest you talk to Winexpert, it would be
> interesting to see what they have to say. I know some of their (red)
> kits end up with a high sg, but perhaps this is not sugar but other
> solids... just a thought. I've only done Spagnols' Australian Chard
> and that was bone dry - 0.990.
>

What I think I will do is post on the WinePress site and see if I can get a
response out of Tim Vandergrift.

Brian


  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Brian Lundeen
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message
...
>
> >

> What I think I will do is post on the WinePress site and see if I can get

a
> response out of Tim Vandergrift.
>

Tim replied. His explanation is that the pasteurization process bonds sugars
to acids. How lovely. When will the world realize the benefits of
irradiation?

He seems to feel their Premier Cuvee yeast does a good job of splitting off
and reducing the bound sugars. Maybe it is better than other yeasts but I
would say not good enough. Well, there's lots of yeast in there and it ain't
going anywhere because it will be aged sur lies for many months. We'll see
what happens over time.

Brian


  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Brian Lundeen
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message
...
>
> >

> What I think I will do is post on the WinePress site and see if I can get

a
> response out of Tim Vandergrift.
>

Tim replied. His explanation is that the pasteurization process bonds sugars
to acids. How lovely. When will the world realize the benefits of
irradiation?

He seems to feel their Premier Cuvee yeast does a good job of splitting off
and reducing the bound sugars. Maybe it is better than other yeasts but I
would say not good enough. Well, there's lots of yeast in there and it ain't
going anywhere because it will be aged sur lies for many months. We'll see
what happens over time.

Brian


  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
pp
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message >...
> "Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > >

> > What I think I will do is post on the WinePress site and see if I can get

> a
> > response out of Tim Vandergrift.
> >

> Tim replied. His explanation is that the pasteurization process bonds sugars
> to acids. How lovely. When will the world realize the benefits of
> irradiation?
>


Well, he must know, but does that really answer your question? If that
was the cause of the high ending sg, then shouldn't _all_wine kits
have the same problem? I've used EC1118, 58W3, D47, and CY3079 on kit
wines (admittedly not Winexpert) and never had problems getting down
to dryness.

Good luck with the lees aging, Brian, hope it'll help.

Pp


  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Brian Lundeen
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"pp" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Well, he must know, but does that really answer your question? If that
> was the cause of the high ending sg, then shouldn't _all_wine kits
> have the same problem? I've used EC1118, 58W3, D47, and CY3079 on kit
> wines (admittedly not Winexpert) and never had problems getting down
> to dryness.
>
> Good luck with the lees aging, Brian, hope it'll help.
>


I've decided I'm going to get another kit for blending (and hope I can get
that dry). I just haven't made up my mind whether to go with another Brew
King or get an En Primeur Chardonnay (which unfortunately is $30 more unless
I can talk the vendor down some).

Brian


  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Brian Lundeen
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"pp" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Well, he must know, but does that really answer your question? If that
> was the cause of the high ending sg, then shouldn't _all_wine kits
> have the same problem? I've used EC1118, 58W3, D47, and CY3079 on kit
> wines (admittedly not Winexpert) and never had problems getting down
> to dryness.
>
> Good luck with the lees aging, Brian, hope it'll help.
>


I've decided I'm going to get another kit for blending (and hope I can get
that dry). I just haven't made up my mind whether to go with another Brew
King or get an En Primeur Chardonnay (which unfortunately is $30 more unless
I can talk the vendor down some).

Brian


  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
pp
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message >...
> "pp" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > Well, he must know, but does that really answer your question? If that
> > was the cause of the high ending sg, then shouldn't _all_wine kits
> > have the same problem? I've used EC1118, 58W3, D47, and CY3079 on kit
> > wines (admittedly not Winexpert) and never had problems getting down
> > to dryness.
> >
> > Good luck with the lees aging, Brian, hope it'll help.
> >

>
> I've decided I'm going to get another kit for blending (and hope I can get
> that dry). I just haven't made up my mind whether to go with another Brew
> King or get an En Primeur Chardonnay (which unfortunately is $30 more unless
> I can talk the vendor down some).
>
> Brian


You could try the Cru Select Platinum from Spagnols - that should be
the same price as the Winexpert and same quality level. I've done the
Aus Chard this year and it's looking pretty good, likely the best kit
white I've done. That was the one that went down to around 0.990 -
think it was CY3079 and am not sure right now, would have to check my
notes.

Pp
  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ralconte
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message >...
> Over in the brew world, we are quite familiar with the use of Beano
> (basically an enzyme that converts complex sugars to simple ones that can be
> converted to alcohol) to reduce the terminal gravity of a beer. Often with
> less than pleasing results because beer requires unfermented sugars to give
> it a proper malt characer, and Beano often doesn't stop when you want it to.
>
> Any thoughts you have on this experiment, please share.
>
> Brian


At the bottom of this web page,
http://www3.nf.sympatico.ca/phumber/finings.htm , about finings is the
mention of something called Rohament P. It contains some other
enzymes to release more flavors from fruit pulp, from the same source
as the enzymes that are in Beano. So there's plenty of people
interested in using new things to get a different flavor.
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